# Do the existing rules prohibit people from debating the gender of people who identify as transgender?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272
**Category:** About This Message Board
**Created:** [December 5, 2020, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272 "2020-12-05T05:45:56Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 18
### Author:  [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/341 "2020-12-08T19:48:27Z")
“Yeah, Sergey, no one is gonna know what you mean when you tell them to Google it” ~Larry Page, Probably
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/342 "2020-12-08T19:50:25Z")
> [@FigNorton](#):
>
> Sorry, are you guys defending random people making up their own words and just going ahead and using them in casual conversation?
…it’s not random people. And sometimes it’s the perfectly cromulent thing to do.
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/343 "2020-12-08T19:55:11Z")
> [@FigNorton](#):
>
> Sorry, are you guys defending random people making up their own words and just going ahead and using them in casual conversation?
[It’s the 160-year-old debate that won’t go away.](https://blogs.illinois.edu/view/25/31097)
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### Author:  [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/344 "2020-12-08T19:56:05Z")
I think it’s unreasonable to expect the people here to remember the preferred pronouns of everyone. And it’s unreasonable to expect everyone to remember your own preferred pronouns. But I think we can have some general guidelines which minimizes any issues. For example:
- Gender specific pronouns **he/she** : Only used when you are very confident the person prefers those pronouns
- Generic gender neutral pronoun **they** : Can be used for anyone
- Other gender neutral pronouns like **zim/sie/em/ver/whatever** : Only used when you have some significant reason to believe the person prefers that form of pronoun
One reason I don’t like the other gender neutral pronouns in the general case is that it’s not clear what the meaning is. I can obviously see that it’s a personal pronoun, but I’m not sure what the difference is between the meanings of zim/sie/etc. And it also implies that the person is not cis-gendered. So if if I see “You should meet Pat. Em is really nice”, one of the takeaways is that Pat is trans or some other non-cis gender since that’s typically who those pronouns are currently used with.
On a board like this, no one can expect to always be called by their preferred pronouns even after that person has mentioned their preferred pronouns. However, everyone has a right to not be misgendered. So if we can say that “they” is always an acceptable pronoun, it will avoid most issues. If in doubt, use “they”. If you know the person prefers something more specific, use that.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/345 "2020-12-08T20:07:58Z")
So, we’ve gone pretty far down the pronoun rabbit hole here.
If you call someone He and they correct you and you keep going He, that’s being a jerk and could earn a warning.
They is perfectly acceptable to use as a singular when you don’t know a preference.
There is zero reason to expect people to use **zim/sie/em/ver/** at this point. Even Cis is asking a lot. I’m just getting used to that one myself.
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### Author:  [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/346 "2020-12-08T20:13:24Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#):
>
> If you call someone He and they correct you and you keep going He, that’s being a jerk and could earn a warning.
Thank you, this is very reasonable and I agree completely.
> [@](#):
>
> They is perfectly acceptable to use as a singular when you don’t know a preference.
> There is zero reason to expect people to use **zim/sie/em/ver/** at this point. Even Cis is asking a lot. I’m just getting used to that one myself
No disagreement here.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/347 "2020-12-08T20:37:40Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#):
>
> E, es, em, emself?
>
> There are literally billions of people, including more than 1.2 billion English Speaking persons, who won’t understand what you’re talking about.
People are pretty dang smart when it comes to language. They encounter made up words every day and manage to understand what’s being talked about.
> [@](#):
>
> Using made up words does not facilitate communication.
Orly?
> [@Colibri](#):
>
> Like internet, email, blog, television, telephone, telegraph?
> [@FigNorton](#):
>
> Sorry, are you guys defending random people making up their own words and just going ahead and using them in casual conversation?
How do you think new words get adopted? Some random person makes it up and just goes ahead and starts using it in casual conversation. It happens literally (and I mean literally) all the time.
> [@filmore](#):
>
> I think it’s unreasonable to expect the people here to remember the preferred pronouns of everyone. And it’s unreasonable to expect everyone to remember your own preferred pronouns. But I think we can have some general guidelines which minimizes any issues. For example:
>
> - Gender specific pronouns **he/she** : Only used when you are very confident the person prefers those pronouns
> - Generic gender neutral pronoun **they** : Can be used for anyone
> - Other gender neutral pronouns like **zim/sie/em/ver/whatever** : Only used when you have some significant reason to believe the person prefers that form of pronoun
I disagree with point 3. There’s no reason not to say that they/zim/sie/em/ver/whatever gender neutral pronouns can be used for everyone.
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### Author:  [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/348 "2020-12-08T20:52:50Z")
> [@Acsenray](#):
>
> How do you think new words get adopted? Some random person makes it up and just goes ahead and starts using it in casual conversation. It happens literally (and I mean literally) all the time
Unless you’re a published member of the non-binary community or a famous rapper, no one is going to adopt your new words.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/349 "2020-12-08T21:01:37Z")
> [@FigNorton](#):
>
> Unless you’re a published member of the non-binary community or a famous rapper, no one is going to adopt your new words.
Is that meant to be an anti-non-binary or racist joke? Because it’s certainly not true.
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### Author:  [@eburacum\_45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum_45)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/350 "2020-12-08T21:06:34Z")
I’ve been using these pronouns for a couple of decades now, in certain circumstances, and they are very useful.
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### Author:  [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/351 "2020-12-08T21:13:28Z")
You mean like electronic mail, distant viewing, distant speaking, and distant writing? People can usually figure out new words based on the roots, or at least look them up easily enough.
In which mainstream dictionary will one find e or es being defined as **Ascenray** did? Searching for “e” online would be pointless.
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/352 "2020-12-08T21:20:44Z")
Quite irrelevant to what you said. When those words were first coined, you couldn’t look them up in a dictionary either. And of course you left out the words without clear roots. How many people today really understand that blog comes from web log?
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/353 "2020-12-08T21:25:28Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#):
>
> Searching for “e” online would be pointless.
Whereas searching for “emself” brings up [Spivak pronouns.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun)
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### Author:  [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/354 "2020-12-08T21:36:51Z")
> [@Acsenray](#):
>
> I disagree with point 3. There’s no reason not to say that they/zim/sie/em/ver/whatever gender neutral pronouns can be used for everyone.
What if some people object to being called by some or all of these alternative gender neutral pronouns? This [site](https://wou.edu/wp/safezone/pronouns/) has about 13 different gender neutral pronouns. I would assume they are not all equivalent in meaning and some people will prefer some over others. I see this issue as a practical problem with a board like this with so many members. No one can remember what everyone’s pronouns are. Just as a theoretical, what would happen if someone flagged a post where you referred to them as “em” and they found it offensive. Should the mods give you a warning or should they tell the person not to be offended?
In line with this thread, it seems like there should be a clear policy with use of gender neutral pronouns. **Mods** , are people permitted to use any gender neutral pronoun they like even if the person being referred to finds that gender neutral pronoun offensive?
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/355 "2020-12-08T21:40:53Z")
Not going to lie, if I saw someone using **zie** / **zim** in the wild I would assume they are mocking Germanic languages or something.
~Max
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/356 "2020-12-08T21:41:11Z")
> [@filmore](#):
>
> What if some people object to being called by some or all of these alternative gender neutral pronouns?
Early every year I tell my students that “What if?” questions will be answered, “THAT is when I **release the krakens**.” I’m happy to answer their questions about the real world and about things that are happening and concern them; but I literally don’t have enough hours left in my life to answer all the “What if?” questions that my students can come up with. They’re very creative.
In that spirit, may I suggest that we not spend too much time worrying over scenarios that aren’t happening, when there’s enough to worry about with what’s actually happening? At the point where someone is called by a gender-neutral pronoun, objects, and the person using it persists, that sounds like a fine subject for a new thread.
And when it starts, that is when I **release the krakens.**
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/357 "2020-12-08T21:45:17Z")
> [@filmore](#):
>
> > [@Acsenray](#):
> >
> > I disagree with point 3. There’s no reason not to say that they/zim/sie/em/ver/whatever gender neutral pronouns can be used for everyone.
>
> What if some people object to being called by some or all of these alternative gender neutral pronouns? This [site](https://wou.edu/wp/safezone/pronouns/) has about 13 different gender neutral pronouns. I would assume they are not all equivalent in meaning and some people will prefer some over others. I see this issue as a practical problem with a board like this with so many members. No one can remember what everyone’s pronouns are. Just as a theoretical, what would happen if someone flagged a post where you referred to them as “em” and they found it offensive. Should the mods give you a warning or should they tell the person not to be offended?
>
> In line with this thread, it seems like there should be a clear policy with use of gender neutral pronouns. **Mods** , are people permitted to use any gender neutral pronoun they like even if the person being referred to finds that gender neutral pronoun offensive?
I find singular “they” offensive. Now what?
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/358 "2020-12-08T21:51:13Z")
If I get warned for referring to you as “they”, there’s a good chance I won’t submit any posts where I have to give you a pronoun (aside from “you”, maybe). It’s not worth the trouble or the risk. (If we were close friends, that would be different. I would just remember.)
If something like that bothers you so much, I recommend making your profile public and adding your preferred pronouns to the top of the description.
~Max
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/359 "2020-12-08T21:52:35Z")
> [@Acsenray](#):
>
> I find singular “they” offensive. Now what?
No you don’t. That sort of “wait watch me be offended now I win” behavior trivializes real concerns that people have. It’s a shitty thing to do.
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/360 "2020-12-08T21:54:31Z")
> [@filmore](#):
>
> In line with this thread, it seems like there should be a clear policy with use of gender neutral pronouns. **Mods** , are people permitted to use any gender neutral pronoun they like even if the person being referred to finds that gender neutral pronoun offensive?
We don’t answer hypotheticals. If the day ever comes when such an event transpires on the board, report it and we’ll deal with it.
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