# Do the existing rules prohibit people from debating the gender of people who identify as transgender?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272
**Category:** About This Message Board
**Created:** [December 5, 2020, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272 "2020-12-05T05:45:56Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 21
### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/402 "2020-12-09T03:10:56Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> Just put it in your “About Me” section near the top.
Thanks!
Now if we can just get people to do that, or at least get those to do that who care what pronouns are used for them (I don’t all that much, though I will sometimes give a heads-up to people who use male ones for me).
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### Author:  [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/403 "2020-12-09T03:16:36Z")
> [@Acsenray](#):
>
> But that’s restricting _my_ linguistic stance. I am actively trying to remove gender from language. That shouldn’t offend anyone. And taking offense shouldn’t be regarded as any different than DrDeth objecting to someone calling em cisgendered.
“I don’t care that you use he/him pronouns and identify as male. I’m going to refer to you by my own private set of pronouns because I want to call you something else!” sure seems like a shitty thing to do and I see no difference at all between that and people who refer to trans men as “she” and trans women as “he.”
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/404 "2020-12-09T03:44:22Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#):
>
> sure seems like a shitty thing to do
**Moderating**
Dial it back. This is veering close to a personal attack. Keep this discussion civil.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/405 "2020-12-09T04:10:22Z")
That chances of me looking that up before i reply are about zero.
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### Author:  [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/406 "2020-12-09T04:29:36Z")
Ah! Very good.
I don’t actually care what pronouns are used for me, but I want it clear that I support that people should use the pronouns for others that the other prefers. If telling people which pronouns I identify by helps others feel safe in identifying themselves openly, I will do that
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### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/407 "2020-12-09T05:04:54Z")
> [@Morgyn](#):
>
> If telling people which pronouns I identify by helps others feel safe in identifying themselves openly, I will do that
I agree with that; but will put in that I listed mine as either female or neutral although I identify strongly as female; but it’s fine with me if people use gender-neutral pronouns for me if they’re using them for people in general, or if gender’s irrelevant to the context, or just because they can’t remember and didn’t think to click on my avatar.
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### Author:  [@Enjoy\_Slurm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enjoy_Slurm)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/408 "2020-12-09T06:13:53Z")
If we’re going with Ascenray’s worldview of completely removing gender from language then my pronouns are ice cream/bacon wrapped jalapeno poppers.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/409 "2020-12-09T06:20:05Z")
Yes. With the caveat that, as you’ve indicated, these particular ignorants are at least knowledge-_curious_.
And with the stipulation that merely transferring the burden of ignorance-eradication onto the nearest convenient member of the class they are ignorant of is not actually fulfilling their onus.
That when I say “educate themselves”, I mean primarily by widely reading and/or viewing a range of good educational material, and of that, mostly those works produced by contemporary members of the class in question.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/410 "2020-12-09T06:29:00Z")
> [@Acsenray](#):
>
> specifically constructed to avoid all issues of offense—constructed to avoid gender preferences altogether.
Not using a gendered pronoun _when such is clearly stated as preferred_ would be offensive…
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> Telling members, “we don’t debate that here, go educate yourself” and _not_ indicating exactly where to find that education they seek, is bad form.
No, it’s not. Everyone who posts here has to at least be in their late teens and hence capable of finding the damn library by themselves. Never mind the internet.
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### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/411 "2020-12-09T07:15:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> And with the stipulation that merely transferring the burden of ignorance-eradication onto the nearest convenient member of the class they are ignorant of is not actually fulfilling their onus.
Good thing we’re not suggesting that, then. Asking questions on a board supposedly dedicated to the eradication of ignorance is not at all similar to asking the nearest convenient member of the class in question. Nor is there any onus on trans board members to answer questions, there are plenty of knowledgeable allies here.
I’m not interested in offending anyone, I’m interested in being able to debate currently-happening changes to laws and culture that will affect me and other people in the society we live in. That’s how it’s supposed to happen in a democracy. Make rules to stop the first that don’t prevent the second, and I’ll be happy.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/412 "2020-12-09T07:30:25Z")
> [@DemonTree](#):
>
> Good thing we’re not suggesting that, then.
I didn’t say you were.
> [@DemonTree](#):
>
> Asking questions on a board supposedly dedicated to the eradication of ignorance is not at all similar to asking the nearest convenient member of the class in question.
In practice, it does actually often work out that way, as soon as such a person enters the conversation.
> [@DemonTree](#):
>
> Nor is there any onus on trans board members to answer questions, there are plenty of knowledgeable allies here.
Who get dismissed as having no skin in the game or only secondhand knowledge…
> [@DemonTree](#):
>
> I’m interested in being able to debate currently-happening changes to laws and culture that will affect me and other people in the society we live in.
If the debates stuck to talking about the effects of changes to accommodate transgender people, and didn’t _always_ stray into the validity of their identity, I don’t think anyone would have a problem with them. But they _always_ do (when they’re not well-poisoned from the start)
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### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/413 "2020-12-09T07:34:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> If the debates stuck to talking about the effects of changes to accommodate transgender people, and didn’t _always_ stray into the validity of their identity, I don’t think anyone would have a problem with them. But they _always_ do (when they’re not well-poisoned from the start)
Did the last closed thread do that? I don’t remember it doing.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/414 "2020-12-09T07:36:14Z")
You somehow missed all the shit about detransitioners?
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### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/415 "2020-12-09T07:37:07Z")
Are you claiming detransitioners don’t exist?
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/416 "2020-12-09T07:38:04Z")
No, I’m claiming the only reason to bring them up in a thread like that is to question the validity of _all_ trans identity.
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### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/417 "2020-12-09T07:41:49Z")
You’re wrong. I believe trans people exist (duh). That doesn’t mean I believe no one ever changes their mind, because that’s demonstrably untrue. And it’s pretty relevant when we’re discussing treatment paths for children.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/418 "2020-12-09T07:49:02Z")
_You_ weren’t the one who brought them up.
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### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/419 "2020-12-09T08:11:19Z")
I had a look at YWTF’s post, and so far as I can see it’s on topic and doesn’t ‘question the validity of _all_ trans identity’. Otherwise you’re just engaging in mind-reading.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/420 "2020-12-09T08:12:41Z")
No, I’m going by known behaviour.
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/421 "2020-12-09T09:22:22Z")
> [@FigNorton](#):
>
> A lack of gender pronouns isn’t exactly a common language trait, so obviously your idea doesn’t develop particularly naturally.
That’s true in Indo-European languages - but there are actually a LOT of languages that don’t distinguish gender with pronouns, including one with the greatest number of native speakers in the world: Mandarin.
So yes, it does develop naturally. It’s just that our language didn’t evolve in that direction.
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