# Do the existing rules prohibit people from debating the gender of people who identify as transgender?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272
**Category:** About This Message Board
**Created:** [December 5, 2020, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272 "2020-12-05T05:45:56Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 22
### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/422 "2020-12-09T10:04:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> No, I’m going by known behaviour.
Give a dog a bad name and hang her. This sort of thing is why people complain about biased moderation: moderating based on perceived intent rather than what someone actually wrote.
The post itself doesn’t call all transgender identities into question, and it’s on topic, so it’s not true that the subject is brought up in every thread.
But you’ve already said you want debate banned altogether. And I understood that to mean debate on policies and medical best practice, too. Is that correct?
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/423 "2020-12-09T10:30:04Z")
> [@DemonTree](#):
>
> But you’ve already said you want debate banned altogether.
_Where_ have I said that? Would this be an example yet again of making up shit I didn’t say? It seems a really popular tactic with people on the opposite side of debates from me, lately.
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### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/424 "2020-12-09T10:39:00Z")
Here, where you said preventing debate on transgender identities was a win-win:
> [@Do the existing rules prohibit people from debating the gender of people who identify as transgender?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/84):
>
> That’s not a trade-off, that’s a win-win.
And you said you wanted to get rid of the line about fighting ignorance, didn’t want people coming here with questions, etc. So does that mean you’re not opposed to debates on practical issues related to the topic?
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/425 "2020-12-09T10:39:41Z")
What, _ **precisely** _, was Max’s option 1, again? And what is the definition of “altogether”?
Try again.
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### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/426 "2020-12-09T10:40:59Z")
Why don’t you just answer the question instead of playing games?
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/427 "2020-12-09T10:42:10Z")
I _did_ answer the question. Proper use of rhetoric =/= “playing games”
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### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/428 "2020-12-09T12:22:44Z")
Never mind. I can see I’m wasting my time.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/429 "2020-12-09T12:32:30Z")
So, no apology for putting words in my mouth?
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/430 "2020-12-09T13:23:07Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#):
>
> > [@Acsenray](#):
> >
> > But that’s restricting _my_ linguistic stance. I am actively trying to remove gender from language. That shouldn’t offend anyone. And taking offense shouldn’t be regarded as any different than DrDeth objecting to someone calling em cisgendered.
>
> “I don’t care that you use he/him pronouns and identify as male. I’m going to refer to you by my own private set of pronouns because I want to call you something else!” sure seems like a shitty thing to do and I see no difference at all between that and people who refer to trans men as “she” and trans women as “he.”
Really? These pronouns are chosen precisely because they have nothing to do with gender, whether chosen or not.
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### Author:  [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/431 "2020-12-09T13:55:49Z")
I guess I had heard that somewhere before. Double checking on it tells me that I/me, you, and she/he/it are all pronounced the same despite having different symbols. So the spoken language developed basically with a single pronoun for everything.
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### Author:  [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/432 "2020-12-09T14:53:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#):
>
> Really? These pronouns are chosen precisely because they have nothing to do with gender, whether chosen or not.
I see. So you want to choose how trans people should be referred to, instead of actually listening to them and what they want. If someone has fought to be called “he,” you constantly using a made up fake pronoun instead of “he” seems to undermine all that person has fought for. You are not helping.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/433 "2020-12-09T14:56:07Z")
I agree with this. The new pronouns seem unhelpful in the end.
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### Author:  [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/434 "2020-12-09T15:05:01Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#):
>
> So you want to choose how trans people should be referred to, instead of actually listening to them and what they want. If someone has fought to be called “he,” you constantly using a made up fake pronoun instead of “he” seems to undermine all that person has fought for. You are not helping.
I think a board like this needs to allow a gender-neutral pronoun(s) to be universally used regardless of what someone’s preference is. It’s unreasonable to expect everyone to remember that this poster wants to be called X, that poster wants to be called Y, etc. We need a way so people don’t have to remember all that. The use of a gender-neutral pronoun allows people to post without having to worry about mis-gendering someone. We need to allow this kind of communication: “Pat2001 knows a lot about cars. **They** will be able to help you.” Pat2001 may prefer to be called he, she, ze, or whatever, but it’s going to be too burdensome on a message board to expect everyone to conform to that when talking about Pat2001. Calling someone “they” instead of “he” shouldn’t be the same level of offense as calling someone “she” instead of “he”.
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### Author:  [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/435 "2020-12-09T15:06:51Z")
Again, that’s fine if you apply it to everyone. If you repeatedly use “they” only when referring to a person you know is trans, while referring to everyone else by their preferred pronoun, THAT is jerky.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/436 "2020-12-09T15:31:38Z")
> [@filmore](#):
>
> t’s unreasonable to expect everyone to remember that this poster wants to be called X, that poster wants to be called Y, etc.
It’s perfectly reasonable to expect someone to remember _if the topic has been raised with them directly_, though. Like if a trans user asked **Acsenray** to please use their preferred pronoun.
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### Author:  [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/437 "2020-12-09T16:02:10Z")
Having worked with several first-generation Mandarin-speaking Chinese immigrants, I’ve known a couple who had pronoun issues from time to time speaking English. It was always clear in context what was meant, but now I wonder if they were ever considered to have done it deliberately by a person looking for insult instead of understanding it as a mistake being made by a non-native speaker.
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/438 "2020-12-09T16:14:06Z")
> [@DemonTree](#):
>
> debate on transgender identities
On the _validity_ of transgender identities. The option #1 he was endorsing reads,
> “prohibiting posts that question the validity of transgender identities”
I think it is unfair to construe **MrDibble** ’s post as encouraging a ban on debates of policies and medical practices related to transgender individuals.
~Max
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### Author:  [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/439 "2020-12-09T17:59:08Z")
Late teens? I thought the minimum age to join was 13.
Has that changed?
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/440 "2020-12-09T18:07:30Z")
I’ve always assumed it was older than that, like 16 or so, but yeah, the registration agreement says 13.
Doesn’t change my point, though. Even a 13 yo can find the damn library.
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2020, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/441 "2020-12-09T19:09:37Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> > [@Max\_S](#):
> >
> > Telling members, “we don’t debate that here, go educate yourself” and _not_ indicating exactly where to find that education they seek, is bad form.
>
> No, it’s not. Everyone who posts here has to at least be in their late teens and hence capable of finding the damn library by themselves. Never mind the internet.
Suppose they go down the wrong rabbit hole.
~Max
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