# Do the existing rules prohibit people from debating the gender of people who identify as transgender?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272
**Category:** About This Message Board
**Created:** [December 5, 2020, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272 "2020-12-05T05:45:56Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2020, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/101 "2020-12-06T18:07:51Z")
> [@Acsenray](#):
>
> However, I agree with the general point, that saying to someone “you are not the gender you are telling me you are” is transphobic. I
Not necessarily transphobic. Maybe ignorant or clueless or out of touch with recent developments. You could have a strong progressive background and still step on a landmine in this issue. I know I have.
So, that is also one reason I would like this subject to have some sort of _limited ban_. We have people fully “woke” on this issue who will get their feelings hurt. We will have closet bigots who _are_ transphobic who are trying to hurt peoples feelings, and the well meaning but out of touch posters who get their feelings hurt when called transphobic.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2020, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/102 "2020-12-06T18:13:40Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> Okay, well we can agree to disagree on whether treating people differently because of gender constitutes gender discrimination.
It’s not an “agree to disagree” thing, not when you’ve based your entire first “paradox” on that premise.
Not all differences in treatment are discriminatory (and I’m using “discriminatory” here meaning “making or showing an **unfair** or **prejudicial** distinction between different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.” My highlights). That’s just a fact.
> [@](#):
>
> There’s a second paradox
No, I’m not here for a Gallop with you. We resolve the first “paradox” or there’s no point continuing.
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2020, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/103 "2020-12-06T18:17:41Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> It’s not an “agree to disagree” thing, not when you’ve based your entire first “paradox” on that premise.
Yes, it is. I “agree” (offer) to drop the first part because I don’t need it. I make no concessions about what is or is not gender discrimination. Anybody reading this topic who agrees with me will see a paradox, anybody who agrees with you will not.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> No, I’m not here for a Gallop with you. We resolve the first “paradox” or there’s no point continuing.
Then you and I are done here, aren’t we?
~Max
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2020, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/104 "2020-12-06T18:21:51Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> Yes, it is. I “agree” to drop the first part because I don’t need it.
I must admit, it’s very novel for me to see someone just openly _admit_ that Gish Galloping is what they’re deliberately setting out to do in this way.
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2020, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/105 "2020-12-06T18:23:50Z")
I made _two_ arguments and presented both of them in the first post. You countered _one_ of my arguments and I decided to let it go rather than derail the conversation.
~Max
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2020, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/106 "2020-12-06T18:29:15Z")
Yes, you are correct. Dropping arguments as they are shown to be bullshit rather than defending them, _and_ hitting people with multiple arguments at a time, _are_ both features of the Gallop.
And how can you derail your _own_ OP?
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### Author:  [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2020, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/107 "2020-12-06T18:29:58Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> Maybe a light touch on enforcement would dispel your concerns. If it’s not to much trouble, just post a quick “here’s our nonnegotiable position on transgender identities” and lock the thread. Say the mods treat questions of this nature like topics posted in the wrong category: don’t opt for strong moderation (like warnings) unless you have repeat offenders.
Nope, that wouldn’t address my concerns at all. I think that people should be free to ask questions, however outrageous or insensitive they may seem to people who know the answers, and that the questions should be answered the same way we do for any other questions posed naïvely and in good faith: with reasoned explanations, and giving the posters opportunities to raise objections and post follow-up questions. If it becomes clear that anyone is acting in bad faith, or if they engage in impolite or hateful behaviour (such as deliberately misgendering people) even after it’s explained to them why this is wrong, then let the mods enforce the “don’t be a dick rule” as heavily as they see fit.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2020, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/108 "2020-12-06T18:31:01Z")
> [@psychonaut](#):
>
> even after it’s explained to them why this is wrong
Naah, this is not 2005 anymore. People know.
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### Author:  [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/109 "2020-12-06T18:32:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Naah, this is not 2005 anymore. People know.
No, a lot of them really don’t.
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### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2020, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/110 "2020-12-06T18:33:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> We have people fully “woke” on this issue who will get their feelings hurt. We will have closet bigots who _are_ transphobic who are trying to hurt peoples feelings, and the well meaning but out of touch posters who get their feelings hurt when called transphobic.
There is another set of people who believe that trans people are people and are entitled to all the same rights and privileges as everybody else. However, there are edge cases with respect to certain circumstances in which exceptions can and should be made. This is not to misgender or discriminate but to ensure safety for those who may be vulnerable. It’s important to keep talking about this rather than shut down of conversations, research and public policy on matters which are not settled by “woke” fiat or declarative statements as if it’s all been settled and those who disagree need to get with the program or be considered transphobic.
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/111 "2020-12-06T18:47:21Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#):
>
> He is now Elliot and identifies as male.
…Elliot doesn’t, as far as I’m aware, identify as male. They have come out as trans, identifies as non-binary and uses he/they pronouns.
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### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2020, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/112 "2020-12-06T18:48:52Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> …Elliot doesn’t, as far as I’m aware, identify as male. They have come out as trans, identifies as non-binary and uses he/they pronouns.
_Confusion to your enemies!_
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2020, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/113 "2020-12-06T18:49:30Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#):
>
> _Confusion to your enemies!_
…???
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2020, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/114 "2020-12-06T18:54:00Z")
And please, for the love of god, DO flush what you have to flush!!! And please, please, wear a mask and maintain social distancing.
Hey **Eve**!!! Long time no see!
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### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2020, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/115 "2020-12-06T19:06:04Z")
Attributed to Robert J. Oppenheimer, “To the confusion of our enemies!”, is a common sardonic refrain that is sometimes used as a toast. In this context, the non-binary gender declaration by Page may be seen to serve as a source of confusion to those who do not want to understand or support non-traditional gender roles. e.g.: Somewhere around here is a poster who decided Page’s announcement is logically inconsistent according to rules of algebra.
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### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/116 "2020-12-06T19:08:21Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#):
>
> And please, for the love of god, DO flush what you have to flush!!! And please, please, wear a mask and maintain social distancing.
Ah, is your office also afflicted with a phantom poo-er?
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/117 "2020-12-06T19:11:06Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#):
>
> In this context, **the non-binary gender declaration by Page is meant to serve as a source of confusion to those who do not want to understand or support non-traditional gender roles.** e.g.: Somewhere around here is a poster who decided it’s logically inconsistent according to rules of algebra.
…???
The non-binary gender declaration was just a non-binary gender declaration. Not intending to confuse. Are you trying to make a joke? This subject is confusing enough for people, I’m not sure you are helping here.
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### Author:  [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2020, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/118 "2020-12-06T19:15:49Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> The non-binary gender declaration was just a non-binary gender declaration. Not intending to confuse. Are you trying to make a joke? This subject is confusing enough for people, I’m not sure you are helping here.
There is some honest confusion to someone using both masculine and gender-neutral pronouns. The strong assumption is that someone saying they prefer he/him also identifies as a man. That may not be the case, but the reality is that most people will assume he=man and it has nothing to do with transphobia. It would be much clearer if he=man, she=woman, they=gender-neutral.
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### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2020, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/119 "2020-12-06T19:16:29Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> Are you trying to make a joke?
I’m afraid so.
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2020, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/120 "2020-12-06T19:17:43Z")
> [@filmore](#):
>
> but the reality is that most people will assume he=man and **it has nothing to do with transphobia.**
…who has argued this?
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