# Do the existing rules prohibit people from debating the gender of people who identify as transgender?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272
**Category:** About This Message Board
**Created:** [December 5, 2020, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272 "2020-12-05T05:45:56Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 9
### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/161 "2020-12-07T07:09:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Might I suggest you sue your own posts for slander, then?
We opted to settle out of court. đ
~Max
---
### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/162 "2020-12-07T07:10:27Z")
What the hell are you talking about? I wasnt doing either and i resent the FUCK out of your âhave you stopped beating your wifeâ question.
I was simply saying there was no Mass Exodus.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/163 "2020-12-07T07:16:13Z")
Sure, like Eve left due to misogyny⌠_or not_ according to Eve herself. Right here. In this very thread.
Give me a list of 100 posters who left _and their posts_ saying they left due to misogyny.
Look there are good solid reasons to reign in transphobic posts and misogyny without making up a mass exodus. When things like that are done it weakens your case, not make it stronger.
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/164 "2020-12-07T07:25:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> Give me a list of 100 posters who left _and their posts_ saying they left due to misogyny.
âŚnobody is going to out anyone or share their PMâs with you to in order to prove a point.
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### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/165 "2020-12-07T07:30:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> And Iâd like to point out that _ **again** _ youâre privileging a _hypothetical_ possible thread over the ones we _do_ have, where we could see they _were_ rife with projecting misandry onto transwomen and actual attribution of malice.
So start modding misandry (against men, too) and attribution of malice to posters then, rather than ban ever more topics of debate.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/166 "2020-12-07T07:37:50Z")
I said _posts_, not PMs.
If the exodus was that massive, surely there is solid public evidence.
Look, there is no need to promote the idea of some sort of imaginary exodus, when simply being a civilized human being is all that is necessary.
And for the kind of posters that dont care about being civilized human beings, then claiming there is a exodus wont convince them either.
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/167 "2020-12-07T07:47:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> I said _posts_ , not PMs.
âŚI know what you said.
You are making an unreasonable assumption that 100 transgender posters leaving the boards would make a public post to announce they were leaving. There is no reason to make that assumption.
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> If the exodus was that massive, surely there is solid public evidence.
Did you notice when I left the boards for six months because of the way race was being treated by the moderators? Is there any public evidence of the way I was made to feel, or how long I was away from the boards?
You are making big assumptions here. I never shared that with anyone, because why would I do that? This place made me feel uncomfortable. So I left for a while. Then I came back. The way casual transphobia has been normalized on these boards has made me uncomfortable. If it continues rather than making a great big farewell post about it Iâll probably just drop out from the boards again. Would I be obliged to post about it in order for you to believe me that I left because of that?
Why do you think there would be public evidence? Why do you think that transgender posters who felt they were being harrassed or felt the moderators werenât doing enough to protect them speak up?
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> Look, there is no need to promote the idea of some sort of imaginary exodus, when simply being a civilized human being is all that is necessary.
The exodus wasnât imaginary. Stop gaslighting.
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> And for the kind of posters that dont care about being civilized human beings, then claiming there is a exodus wont convince them either.
These people arenât what this thread is about. There is a reason we are discussing this in ATMB and not the pit.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/168 "2020-12-07T07:47:40Z")
I donât care that _you_ think the exoduses are imaginary. What matters is whether the mods have noticed the phenomenon, and care enough to do something about it.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/169 "2020-12-07T07:57:13Z")
> [@DemonTree](#):
>
> So start modding misandry (against men, too) and attribution of malice to posters then, rather than ban ever more topics of debate.
Thatâs up to the mods. But the way I see it, the topic (or at least, the TERFy take on it) is a poisoned well at this point.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/170 "2020-12-07T07:58:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> If the exodus was that massive, surely there is solid public evidence.
Posters saying they got PMs from women saying they left for that reason not good enough for you?
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### Author:  [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/171 "2020-12-07T07:59:39Z")
I wish I could find them myself, but I donât remember enough about their exact contents to reliably retrieve them with the search function here. If you search for âtransgenderâ and âEveâ and/or âUnaâ and look for long-ish threads dating to between 2000 and 2010, then youâve as good a chance at turning them up as I have.
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/172 "2020-12-07T08:14:43Z")
I see that most people havenât responded directly to **What\_Exit** when he solicited opinions, here,
> [@What\_Exit](#):
>
> - What can the Mods do to make the place more Trans-friendly, more of a safe place?
> - What should we be looking for and watching out for?
>
> Remembering, I am only gathering information for the modloop and am actually a newby mod.
Although you did seem to support one of the resolutions I listed here,
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> From post #1, I can only see three possible resolutions:
>
> 1. Officially take the side of transgender/allies by prohibiting posts that question the validity of transgender identities (on the basis of said posts being inherently jerkish, encouragement of gender discrimination, personal attacks, or hate speech).
> 2. Officially take the other side by saying you wonât prohibit posts that question the validity of transgender identities (on the basis of said posts being inherently jerkish, encouragement of gender discrimination, personal attacks, or hate speech).
> 3. Change the rules to allow personal attacks and/or encouragement of gender discrimination
> 4. Status quo. Transgender members/allies are subject to behavior that they consider a violation of the rules, but you are unable or unwilling to decide whether said behavior is actionable. In practice, the same as #2.
>
> My opinion is that this list is exhaustive. If your goal is to be a safe place for transgender members, I highly recommend picking option 1. The trade off is that we are unable to debate the validity of transgender identities any more.[âŚ]
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Thatâs not a trade-off, thatâs a win-win.
You seemed to take issue with the whole gender discrimination thing, so maybe you ought to clarify what you think the mods should do and what they should look out for.
And maybe collectively we should stop quibbling about whether or exactly why there is a problem or not, and start talking about what changes you would like to see.
~Max
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/173 "2020-12-07T08:32:42Z")
> [@psychonaut](#):
>
> If it becomes clear that anyone is acting in bad faith, or if they engage in impolite or hateful behaviour (such as deliberately misgendering people) even after itâs explained to them why this is wrong, then let the mods enforce the âdonât be a dick ruleâ as heavily as they see fit.
A few questions,
1. I see this as the status quo. No rule changes. Is that a fair assessment of your take on this - status quo?
2. Are you saying mods should look at deliberate misgendering of non-members as jerkish/hate speech? Or would that only be misgendering of members?
3. Do you think the moderators are presently overlooking some bad faith toward transgender members?
4. What do you think about **MrDibble** âs main point that modding bad faith isnât enough, post #152
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> [âŚ] even without it being malicious in intent, itâs still hurtful in action[âŚ]
~Max
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/174 "2020-12-07T08:57:50Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> You seemed to take issue with the whole gender discrimination thing, so maybe you ought to clarify what you think the mods should do and what they should look out for.
I thought I made it clear - I think they should take your option 1.
Given the moderation theyâve already exercised around **YWTF** , it seems theyâre already mostly there.
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/175 "2020-12-07T09:01:11Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Given the moderation theyâve already exercised around **YWTF** , it seems theyâre already mostly there.
No, I donât think thatâs the case. I read that she was topic-banned because of prolific activity, not because of her viewpoint. **What\_Exit** made a post about it in the locked thread, I think. 1000+ posts on the same topic.
~Max
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### Author:  [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/176 "2020-12-07T09:01:19Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> 1. I see this as the status quo. No rule changes. Is that a fair assessment of your take on this - status quo?
With respect to rules, yes. With respect to their enforcement, not necessarily.
> [@](#):
>
> 2. Are you saying mods should look at deliberate misgendering of non-members as jerkish/hate speech? Or would that only be misgendering of members?
Deliberate and persistent misgendering of members is jerkish and should be dealt with the same way as sexist or racist insults directed at posters. Deliberate and persistent misgendering of non-members is jerkish and should be dealt with the same way as sexist or racist insults directed at non-members.
> [@](#):
>
> 3. Do you think the moderators are presently overlooking some bad faith toward transgender members?
Recently? I donât know; I havenât been able to keep up with the recent threads on this topic (including the one about Rowling and the one about whether transgender people were treated better in the past) due to the sheer volume of posts.
> [@](#):
>
> 4. What do you think about **MrDibble** âs main point that modding bad faith isnât enough, post #152
I refer you to my Borat example. Yes, many comments and questions made in good faith are shocking and offensive, but the _intent_ was not to offend. Handling such comments too harshly in the first instance risks radicalizing the poster, whereas taking them patiently and at face value, however frustratingly repetitious that may be, at least has a better chance of effecting a positive attitude change. I know this because I have witnessed it several times here in the past, and have undergone it myself. (Well, to clarify, I donât think I was ever one of those who posted distasteful questions and arguments, but they had certainly _occurred_ to me or else seemed sensible to me at the time, and I benefited immeasurably from reading the responses.)
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/177 "2020-12-07T09:04:43Z")
Oh, come on. If sheâd posted 1000 non-hostile posts on snack foods in the Cafe, she would not be topic-banned.
And I donât mean _just_ her topic ban, I mean the thread closures and closer moderation of those recent threads, as well.
The Rowling mess had a much more hands-off approach in comparison, which is why it went as sour as it did.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/178 "2020-12-07T09:10:31Z")
> [@psychonaut](#):
>
> Deliberate and persistent misgendering of non-members is jerkish and should be dealt with the same way as sexist or racist insults directed at non-members.
This I definitely agree with.
> [@psychonaut](#):
>
> whereas taking them patiently and at face value, however frustratingly repetitious that may be, at least has a better chance of effecting a positive attitude change.
This I donât. Like I said, itâs not 2005 any more. People should know better, and if they donât, they should just be dealt with with warnings. The burden of the work should not be on their victims. This comes up all the damn time [over](https://www.salon.com/2015/04/14/black_people_are_not_here_to_teach_you_what_so_many_white_americans_just_cant_grasp_partner/) [racism](https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/06/08/black-friends-educate-racism/), it isnât any different for trans issues.
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/179 "2020-12-07T09:15:38Z")
> [@psychonaut](#):
>
> Handling such comments too harshly in the first instance risks radicalizing the poster, whereas taking them patiently and at face value, however frustratingly repetitious that may be, at least has a better chance of effecting a positive attitude change.
I see. What about the case where a member genuinely denies the validity of transgender identities?
âIâll call you whatever pronouns you wish, butâŚâ
- âI donât think you should play girlsâ soccer.â
- âI support this legislation which will make it illegal for schools to let students use any bathroom except the one that matches their sex as assigned at birthâ.
- âI donât support the integration of transmen and transwomen into the militaryâ.
- âI wonât accomodate your requests when it comes to uniforms.â
â_Because I donât believe transgender identities are valid_â.
How should mods respond to that sort of thing? Because I thought _these_ were the major problems, not mere misgendering.
~Max
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### Author:  [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/180 "2020-12-07T09:15:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> People should know better, and if they donât, they should just be dealt with with warnings. The burden of the work should not be on their victims.
The burden of the work should fall on all of us who know better.
I think your approach (warn or ban and move on) is fine for a forum that presents itself as a social or debating club. And I know, from your post above, that you think thatâs what the SDMB has become. But thatâs not what this site bills itself as, and itâs not how I personally view it. Iâm still here largely for the âfighting ignoranceâ bitâalways have been, always will be.
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