# Do the Manson Family women (Atkins, Van Houten, Krenwinkel) deserve release? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2008, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317 "2008-07-31T03:27:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317/21 "2008-07-31T15:07:02Z")
No, they can never deserve release. I wouldn’t necessarily be morally opposed to compassionate release, but not because they deserve it. A 20 year old murderer who kills someone while during an argument while drunk or while panicked during a robbery gone bad I can see someday meriting release, but the Manson family were convicted for stalking and committing the premeditated multiple murder of eight people in the most brtual fashion imaginable, for no reason that made any sense. If they jointly cured cancer tomorrow they couldn’t deserve release. That said, if they were very literally on their deathbeds and it would cost the state five or ten times the amount to care for them while incarcerated as it would to provide indigent care, I wouldn’t consider it a great moral outrage if they were released to go die somewhere more cheaply, although the wishes of the victims’ families would be of paramount importance, if not decisive. It’s all academic, though, because they’ll never be released, compassionate or otherwise. They committed arguably the most shocking and notorious mass murder of the 20th century and nobody nowhere nohow who has any say in the matter will ever, ever agree to their release. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317/22 "2008-07-31T15:25:41Z")
[QUOTE=tdn] So we’re pretty much agreed that drugged up 20-year-old girls living in a time of major social upheaval and under the influence of a charismatic but evil leader can never grow up and learn from their mistakes? [/QUOTE] Another word for “drugged up 20-year-old” is **adult**. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317/23 "2008-07-31T15:31:31Z")
Thought just occurred to me: why just the women and not Tex Watson? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317/24 "2008-07-31T15:31:59Z")
Remember too that they did not commit one crime. They did the horrors two times, and might have done it more times if they had not been caught. Good fucking night. How many times does a person have to do something unspeakably evil before society realizes the only solution is to put them to death or lock them up and throw away the key? ETA: Tex Watson indeed. Why not Charles Manson himself? ---
**Author:** ![Shamozzle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shamozzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shamozzle)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317/25 "2008-07-31T15:46:15Z")
[QUOTE=pravnik] Thought just occurred to me: why just the women and not Tex Watson? [/QUOTE] I couldn’t find any videos of him where he had tears in his eyes and seemed repentant so I didn’t bother including him. Same for Manson. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317/26 "2008-07-31T16:07:11Z")
[QUOTE=tdn] So we’re pretty much agreed that drugged up 20-year-old girls living in a time of major social upheaval and under the influence of a charismatic but evil leader can never grow up and learn from their mistakes? Are you the same person now that you were at 20? (Not that I have an opinion one way or the other, I’m just asking if you think that growing up is never possible.) [/QUOTE] I don’t _care_ if they’re sorry. I don’t _care_ if they’re different. Like **Pravnik** said, these crimes were not youthful, impulsive “mistakes.” I can actually believe that a 17 year old gang banger who shoots somebody in a drive-by can grow up in prison and comprehend his mistake and change, but the Manson killings went far beyond immature, stupid decisions. They were premiditated, repeated and sadistic in a way that most people simply are not capable of, drugs or no drugs. Hell, I did a lot of acid and it’s not something that will make you do anything you would ordinarily find morally repulsive. If anything,the moral repulsion is _amplified_. Some dirty freak handing me a knofe and telling me to go into a house and literally butcher innocent people would be a recipe for the worst trip of all time. I don’t believe for a second that it’s something anyone could do who wasn’t already evil. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317/27 "2008-07-31T16:39:11Z")
[QUOTE=Shamozzle] I couldn’t find any videos of him where he had tears in his eyes and seemed repentant so I didn’t bother including him. Same for Manson. [/QUOTE] I don’t know if there are any videos, but Watson had a jailhouse conversion too and now runs a prison ministry of some sort and has declared himself “forgiven by God.” It always bugs me when people like this (Son of Sam is another one) say that God has forgiven them, because God isn’t one of thir victims. God has no _right_ to forgive them. Only their victims do. Declaring themselves forgiven by God seems to m to be a way of trying to put themselves above the judgement of other humans. To hell with that. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317/28 "2008-07-31T16:45:12Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Like **Pravnik** said, these crimes were not youthful, impulsive “mistakes.” I can actually believe that a 17 year old gang banger who shoots somebody in a drive-by can grow up in prison and comprehend his mistake and change, but the Manson killings went far beyond immature, stupid decisions. They were premiditated, repeated and sadistic in a way that most people simply are not capable of, drugs or no drugs. [/QUOTE] I see your point. I’m just wondering if they pose a real danger to anyone anymore. But agreed, what they did was way beyond the pale, and they were old enough to have known better. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317/29 "2008-07-31T16:51:26Z")
[QUOTE=Shamozzle] I couldn’t find any videos of him where he had tears in his eyes and seemed repentant so I didn’t bother including him. Same for Manson. [/QUOTE] Fair enough. Watson wrote a book about his crimes and declared himself a born again Christian, so I think only Manson remains unrepentant. In a twisted way, he might be the only honest one of the bunch. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317/30 "2008-07-31T17:28:32Z")
Has any other woman committed an equally horrible but less infamous crime and been paroled? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317/31 "2008-07-31T17:55:29Z")
[QUOTE=sciurophobic] Has any other woman committed an equally horrible but less infamous crime and been paroled? [/QUOTE] [Carol Ann Fugate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caril_Ann_Fugate) might fit the bill (Charles Starkweather’s girlfriend). ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317/32 "2008-07-31T18:06:28Z")
[QUOTE=pravnik] That said, if they were very literally on their deathbeds and it would cost the state five or ten times the amount to care for them while incarcerated as it would to provide indigent care, I wouldn’t consider it a great moral outrage if they were released to go die somewhere more cheaply, although the wishes of the victims’ families would be of paramount importance, if not decisive. It’s all academic, though… [/QUOTE] I would be against releasing any of the Manson family on parole, or compassionate release where they’re still in relatively good health and aren’t going to die soon. However, in [Susan Atkin’s case](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Atkins#Compassionate_release_request_.26_hearing), her doctors say her condition is terminal (given six months to live in April 2008), she’s partly paralyzed and can’t sit upright without assistance, and her care in hospital is costing a fortune - including $300,000 alone for the security guard. In this particular case, I could possibly agree with “compassionate release” - not really because I feel compassion for her, but because it’s a waste of money. She is absolutely no danger to anyone in her current condition, she will die soon, and the cost of caring for her in a hospital after release would be way less than the cost of hospital care, imprisonment, and paying for a guard. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > In April 2008, it was revealed that Atkins had been hospitalized for more than a month with an undisclosed illness, which was subsequently reported to be terminal brain cancer and one leg has been amputated. Atkins was given less than six months to live and subsequently requested a “compassionate release” from prison. Vincent Bugliosi, who prosecuted Atkins, said he was not opposed to her release given her current condition, adding that she had paid “substantially, though not completely, for her horrendous crimes.” [19] Bugliosi also stated that he supported her release in order to save the state money. The cost for Atkins’ medical care since she was hospitalized on March 18, 2008 has reportedly surpassed $1.15 million with additional cost of over $300,000 to guard her hospital room. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317/33 "2008-07-31T18:09:43Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] [Carol Ann Fugate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caril_Ann_Fugate) might fit the bill (Charles Starkweather’s girlfriend). [/QUOTE] Certainly not exonerating her, but she was a minor at the time of the murders (14 at the time of her capture). This probably made a huge difference in the parole hearings. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317/34 "2008-07-31T18:24:48Z")
Security guards get paid $300,000? No release. It’s like Sirhan Sirhan…why even bother applying for parole, dude? Some crimes are so heinous that barring a needle in the arm, the worst we can do is make you sit in a tiny little room to contemplate your crimes. IOW, what **Sampiro** said Chris Rock said. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317/35 "2008-07-31T18:26:46Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] Certainly not exonerating her, but she was a minor at the time of the murders (14 at the time of her capture). This probably made a huge difference in the parole hearings. [/QUOTE] I agree the age probably made a difference, as well as the fact that the extent of her involvement was never really clear. It was the best i could come up with, though. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317/36 "2008-07-31T18:28:03Z")
[QUOTE=Waenara] I would be against releasing any of the Manson family on parole, or compassionate release where they’re still in relatively good health and aren’t going to die soon. However, in [Susan Atkin’s case](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Atkins#Compassionate_release_request_.26_hearing), her doctors say her condition is terminal (given six months to live in April 2008), she’s partly paralyzed and can’t sit upright without assistance, and her care in hospital is costing a fortune - including $300,000 alone for the security guard. In this particular case, I could possibly agree with “compassionate release” - not really because I feel compassion for her, but because it’s a waste of money. She is absolutely no danger to anyone in her current condition, she will die soon, and the cost of caring for her in a hospital after release would be way less than the cost of hospital care, imprisonment, and paying for a guard. [/QUOTE] To me, whether she’s a danger is beside the point. It would be an affront to her victims to ever let her daw a free breath, even if it’s her last one. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317/37 "2008-07-31T18:39:09Z")
The only situation I can think of that is comparable to The Manson Family is [Jonestown](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones). The members gunned down Rep. Leo Ryan and some members of his entourage, but at least most of them had to courage to drink the poisoned Flavorade, sparing us all the mess of bringing them to trial. Here again, some of the members begged Ryan to let them leave with him. They knew Jim Jones was evil and wanted no more to do with him. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317/38 "2008-07-31T18:40:07Z")
In the thread about Susan Atkins, I and some others felt that the problem here is in the sentencing. If the jury had, at the time of the trial, sentenced her to life without possibility of parole, so be it. But they didn’t…they left that option open. So that part is already decided. But why give the possibility of parole and then say there’s no possibility, realistically? The courts have to say what they mean and mean what they say IMO. It’s cruel, in a way, to let them think they might get out. If there is absolutely _nothing_ they can do to show they’ve rehabilitated, felt remorse, etc. then the original sentence is a sham. Should she be released? I don’t know…but she should have a fair chance at it because that’s what a jury decided years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317/39 "2008-07-31T18:47:25Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] The only situation I can think of that is comparable to The Manson Family is [Jonestown](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones). The members gunned down Rep. Leo Ryan and some members of his entourage, but at least most of them had to courage to drink the poisoned Flavorade, sparing us all the mess of bringing them to trial. [/QUOTE] [Hijack]In a weird irony one of Ryan’s daughters, Shannon, sought comfort after her father’s death… by joining a cult (that of the [Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagwan_Shree_Rajneesh)).[/Hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317/40 "2008-07-31T18:49:12Z")
😉 [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I agree the age probably made a difference, as well as the fact that the extent of her involvement was never really clear. It was the best i could come up with, though. [/QUOTE] Plus, she was played by Sissy Spacek in the movie, who is just adorable. Who here could vote to keep Sissy Spacek in prison? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-manson-family-women-atkins-van-houten-krenwinkel-deserve-release/458317.md?page=3)