# Do the Pogues belong in the R&R Hall of Fame? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 13, 2007, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944 "2007-05-13T18:27:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944/21 "2007-05-13T23:56:02Z")
Just for the heck of it, are there any established criteria for induction? If so, what are they? As an aside, is McGowan yet _compos mentis_? I saw a documentary that suggested otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![RedRosesForMe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/91b2a8/32.png) [@RedRosesForMe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRosesForMe)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944/22 "2007-05-13T23:57:44Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] I love that song. And, Red, if you hadn’t shown up I’d have been disappointed. 🙂 [/QUOTE] No better way to get at least a couple of posts outta me than mention my favorite band EVAR. 😉 I’d second someone else’s suggestion to see them live if possible. I went to England to see Shane MacGowan and I had to sell my plasma to do it, but it was soooo worth it. Shane stumbled onstage a half hour late (the rest of the band came out and started playing instrumentals) with a drink in one hand and a cigarette in the other. They had a stool for him because he was too shipwrecked to stand, and his microphone had… wait for it… a _drink holder_ attached. It was awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944/23 "2007-05-14T00:03:41Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Just for the heck of it, are there any established criteria for induction? If so, what are they? [/quote] I’m not aware of them, but for me, popularity, influence, creativity, brilliance–they all may overlap with the single criteria that counts–did the act _matter_. Now, I recognize how subjective that is. But that’s what counts for me, ultimately. I don’t mind that the Righteous Brothers got in. Heck, I like them. But if they’re in, and not the Pogues?–puh-_leez_! > [@](#): > > As an aside, is McGowan yet _compos mentis_? I saw a documentary that suggested otherwise. Have not heard. But an Irish artist who loses his faculties to demons and rum? Come on, get real. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944/24 "2007-05-14T00:06:43Z")
[QUOTE=RedRosesForMe] I’d second someone else’s suggestion to see them live if possible. I went to England to see Shane MacGowan and I had to sell my plasma to do it, but it was soooo worth it. Shane stumbled onstage a half hour late (the rest of the band came out and started playing instrumentals) with a drink in one hand and a cigarette in the other. They had a stool for him because he was too shipwrecked to stand, and his microphone had… wait for it… a _drink holder_ attached. It was awesome. [/QUOTE] I’m jealous. I can’t tell you. When I get the chance, I will jump. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944/25 "2007-05-14T00:09:56Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] But an Irish artist who loses his faculties to demons and rum? Come on, get real. [/QUOTE] I did not mean to suggest that if it were true somehow they should be excluded. Just wanted to know. I like the Pogues, although I am a bit late to the party. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944/26 "2007-05-14T00:14:13Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] I did not mean to suggest that if it were true somehow they should be excluded. Just wanted to know. [/QUOTE] Sorry, didn’t mean that to sound defensive or snarky. Take it from one with Irish heritage who takes no offense at the thought that demons and alcohol can influence people’s lives quite dramatically. I didn’t find your suggestion outlandish at all, quite frankly. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944/27 "2007-05-14T00:22:16Z")
[Here’s the documentary.](http://www.amazon.com/If-Should-Fall-Grace-MacGowan/dp/B00008R9LB) I only remember bits of it, but from what I do remember he was incoherent and and babbling much of the time. I fully admit to the possibility of a faulty memory, however. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944/28 "2007-05-14T00:32:03Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] I’ll let you know after I give it several more listenings. But I will say now that I find a categorization of _Rum, Sodomy & the Lash_ as over-produced as curious indeed. It sounds extremely organic to me, as if it could have been “produced” in a pub in nineteenth-century Dublin. Between fistfights. I exaggerate a bit, I suppose. But over-produced? Hmm. I could play all the basic arrangements, without losing much, with two other guys, I think. [/QUOTE] Apparently, Costello took lots of takes and stitched together the “best” bits. Shane in particular didn’t like that style- he much preferred just having the band play the damned song! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944/29 "2007-05-14T00:33:22Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] [Here’s the documentary.](http://www.amazon.com/If-Should-Fall-Grace-MacGowan/dp/B00008R9LB) I only remember bits of it, but from what I do remember he was incoherent and and babbling much of the time. I fully admit to the possibility of a faulty memory, however. [/QUOTE] That film will make a grown man cry- it did my husband. Shane, while fairly competant, has lost a lot. Watching him attempt to articulate a thought, then give up with a wry grin, is awful. I recommend it, though- hell, I own it. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944/30 "2007-05-14T00:34:02Z")
FWIW, I’ve never seen him completely lucid and coherent, not that I’ve exhaustively investigated the matter. But youtube has provided a nicely consistent pattern of sotted behavior, at least as far as I can confirm. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944/31 "2007-05-14T00:40:03Z")
[QUOTE=EJsGirl] That film will make a grown man cry- it did my husband. Shane, while fairly competant, has lost a lot. Watching him attempt to articulate a thought, then give up with a wry grin, is awful. I recommend it, though- hell, I own it. [/QUOTE] Is Shane still just drunken, or has he really lost something? I dread watching it. I’ve never seen a clip where he seems truly sober, but I’ve known plenty of foggy drunks who regained their coherence when sober. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944/32 "2007-05-14T00:41:27Z")
[QUOTE=EJsGirl] Apparently, Costello took lots of takes and stitched together the “best” bits. Shane in particular didn’t like that style- he much preferred just having the band play the damned song! 😃 [/QUOTE] Interesting. Shane (his vocals, in particular) sound far from polished. And that’s a compliment. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944/33 "2007-05-14T00:52:24Z")
[QUOTE=RedRosesForMe] I’d second someone else’s suggestion to see them live if possible. I went to England to see Shane MacGowan and I had to sell my plasma to do it, but it was soooo worth it. [/QUOTE] England or Scotland are probably the best places to worship at the feet of Shane. You do know that he was born in Tunbridge Wells and attended Westminster School, right? ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944/34 "2007-05-14T02:01:14Z")
I miss the top 10 polls that were going around a couple of years ago. Who was that and why did they end? I want a Pogues poll to go around just so I can add my most recently discovered gem, Night Train to Lorca. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944/35 "2007-05-14T02:32:28Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] Is Shane still just drunken, or has he really lost something? I dread watching it. I’ve never seen a clip where he seems truly sober, but I’ve known plenty of foggy drunks who regained their coherence when sober. [/QUOTE] Watch it, seriously. As to Shane’s state, well, you know he still drinks a lot. But even so, there are flashes of lucidity, but it seems to me that he has lost some capacity to communicate his thoughts effectively, which is a tragedy for a poet. ---
**Author:** ![threnodyangelfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@threnodyangelfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threnodyangelfire)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944/36 "2007-05-14T03:31:04Z")
He is a beautiful lyricist. “I took shelter from a shower, and I stepped into your arms, on a rainy night in SoHo” ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944/37 "2007-05-14T03:45:12Z")
[QUOTE=Kneepants Erasmus, the Humanist] I have noticed that if I really love a band, they are pretty much guaranteed to not make the hall of fame (The Clash being the only exception I can think of off the top of my head.) I thought that strongly influencing other bands would be all it took (how many copycat bands have The Pogues inspired? I can think of at least two obvious ones). But seeing as how XTC and Husker Du (two of my favorite bands) don’t have a chance in hell either…the opinions of fellow musicians is obviously not a consideration. It seems that selling millions of records is all that matters. [/QUOTE] I think we share the same taste in music! I think The Pogues are ace. But I agree they are sort of a one-off, unless you can connect bands like the Dropkick Murphys to them (I don’t know if that even makes much sense). But they should have inducted XTC right after they got The Beatles in! (d&r) ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944/38 "2007-05-14T04:03:32Z")
[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow] I think we share the same taste in music! I think The Pogues are ace. But I agree they are sort of a one-off, unless you can connect bands like the Dropkick Murphys to them (I don’t know if that even makes much sense). [/QUOTE] It does to me. The Dropkick Murphys, Flogging Molly, the Real McKenzies, Black 47, and several others owe their existence to the Pogues. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944/39 "2007-05-14T04:05:50Z")
[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow] I think we share the same taste in music! I think The Pogues are ace. But I agree they are sort of a one-off, unless you can connect bands like the Dropkick Murphys to them (I don’t know if that even makes much sense). But they should have inducted XTC right after they got The Beatles in! (d&r) [/QUOTE] Yeah, XTC’s been eligible for 5 years now, and Husker Du was eligible this year (as were The Replacements - I was halfway hoping when R.E.M. got inducted they’d mention HD or the 'Mats). As for The Pogues, they no doubt belong, but I have to agree there’s not much chance of it happening. Never saw The Pogues (had a couple chances and, for various reasons, it never worked out), but I did see Shane with his backing band The Popes twice, and it was great. While obviously plastered, he hit all his cues, including the perfect shrieks in “If I Should Fall From Grace With God”. As far as _Rum, Sodomy & The Lash_ being overproduced, I don’t hear it. And wasn’t _If I Should Fall…_ produced by Steve Lilywhite? Not exactly a hands-off producer himself. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944/40 "2007-05-14T09:55:32Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] Is Shane still just drunken, or has he really lost something? I dread watching it. I’ve never seen a clip where he seems truly sober, but I’ve known plenty of foggy drunks who regained their coherence when sober. [/QUOTE] That’s what I was getting at. In his sober moments he is halting, confused, and barely coherent. At least in the documentary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pogues-belong-in-the-r-r-hall-of-fame/403944.md?page=3)