# Do the police ever kill some of those "battle-ready" private citizens standing in a group? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2015, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199 "2015-08-06T23:39:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/21 "2015-08-08T17:14:48Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > In a group out in public, I can’t think of any specific examples. Maybe someone can. > > In the past the Feds have challenged such groups pretty violently, the 1990s saw several such confrontations turn into bloodshed. I’ve never heard a true explanation as to why Cliven Bundy wasn’t directly confronted (maybe someone gave one), but I think that while municipal/State police forces have become much more “trigger happy” and “officer safety obsessed” in a way that leads to police that are essentially trained to shoot too quickly and in too many situations, the converse seems to have happened with Federal law enforcement. Remember the Feds lost a civil suit brought by Randy Weaver (the guy at Ruby Ridge) and ultimately the original charges against him were dropped and he wasn’t charged with anything related to the shoot out at Ruby Ridge itself. Waco also was a major black eye. I think Federal law enforcement is more likely to avoid direct confrontation when it frankly isn’t necessary. This echoes how law enforcement is done in many parts of the world (you can find videos online of British police simply backing away and getting into a defensive position in response to aggressive suspects wielding knives for example. > > Local police have not been so response about controversial incidents. Thanks, **Martin**. Emphasis added. The shootings we read about and discuss here are almost always state and local cops, not federal LEOs. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/22 "2015-08-08T21:29:05Z")
Don’t forget the biker gang mass killing in Waco several weeks ago. Police have refused to say how many of them were shot by police, which suggests that many of them were. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/23 "2015-08-08T21:35:46Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > But most countries you don’t get shot in the head for reaching over to the ignition of your car, a place where a gun cannot be concealed, … Nitpick, but here is a link to a [Steering Wheel column holster mount](https://www.gungoddess.com/steering-wheel-column-holster-mount/), available online for $34.95 (gift wrapping for $5 extra). There are a lot of other sellers of similar items, plus under-dash holster mounts, many advertised as ‘concealed’ or ‘invisible’. Knowing that such things ARE available, if I was a cop I’d be pretty jumpy about suspects reaching into this area. But I do agree that police officers should receive more training in de-escalating tactics. But that means we taxpayers would have to pay more for more highly-trained cops. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/24 "2015-08-08T23:25:00Z")
That actually isn’t relevant to what I said–I said “a place where a gun cannot be concealed.” If it’s your opinion the product at that link wouldn’t be immediately visible to a police officer conducting a traffic stop I posit you’ve probably never looked inside a car from outside of a car before, because that shit would be obvious immediately. You can, obviously, strap a gun to anything, but that doesn’t mean it’s concealed–the gun in the picture at your link isn’t concealed from anyone. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/25 "2015-08-10T06:14:06Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Cliven Bundy is a criminal. His armed posse should have been taken out with whatever means necessary. Police will strangle an unarmed black guy for selling single cigarettes but a well armed white guy with vigilante stooges is allowed to stiff the government for millions in grazing fees. “Should be taken out with whatever means necessary”??? Holy shit… In re: the OP, I am reminded of the Rodney King riots and the iconic scene of the cops driving off. Of course, they will not stay away for long, and as soon as reinforcements arrive they will be back. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/26 "2015-08-10T07:05:07Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Cliven Bundy is a criminal. His armed posse should have been taken out with whatever means necessary. Police will strangle an unarmed black guy for selling single cigarettes but a well armed white guy with vigilante stooges is allowed to stiff the government for millions in grazing fees. I agree completely. Cops should brutally suppress criminals of all races by whatever means necessary. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I feel there is a perspective in many police departments that they are soldiers in a war, and the communities they police are occupied territory. If they “back up” from a confrontation, it’s akin to “retreat” in a military sense, and as a soldier they aren’t supposed to retreat. Take the Darren Wilson / Michael Brown incident, a situation where I think “at the time of the shooting” Wilson was probably acting correctly due to being violently assaulted by a dangerous person (and unlike people who have never been in a fight, I know that fists can mess you up pretty quickly, especially if the guy beats the shit out of you and you have a holstered gun on you that he can take away), but Wilson could have simply backed away down the block when he realized Brown was agitated to the point of violence. There was no reason he had to confront him the way he did. However, it does go against the “war” mentality of policing. Part of this is likely the reemergence of a “warrior class” in American society. Young men are raised in patriotic households, told that serving and dying for your country is the highest possible honor, and then head overseas to fight in America’s wars. They return home and join law enforcement or otherwise join security positions and then raise families with the same values, who continue the process. We are reaching a point - which, for what it is worth, it not at all atypical historically - where the people who secure our physical wellbeing are culturally and even genetically from those they protect. A large part of this process, I would wager, has resulted from the progressive stigmatization of law enforcement, the military, and masculinity, discouraging all but those thoroughly ensconced in traditional values from entering into these fields. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/27 "2015-08-10T16:16:17Z")
Tangentially related, but the black panthers in California used to walk around with openly displayed weapons. I think a long as the barrel was pointing down you were OK under state law. Cops didn’t like having armed, angry black people watching them while they mistreated people, so that law was changed. I’m not sure if law enforcement or the public pushed to change the law but it create political will to disarm people. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/28 "2015-08-10T16:22:41Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > I agree completely. Cops should brutally suppress criminals of all races by whatever means necessary.Part of this is likely the reemergence of a “warrior class” in American society. Young men are raised in patriotic households, told that serving and dying for your country is the highest possible honor, and then head overseas to fight in America’s wars. They return home and join law enforcement or otherwise join security positions and then raise families with the same values, who continue the process. We are reaching a point - which, for what it is worth, it not at all atypical historically - where the people who secure our physical wellbeing are culturally and even genetically from those they protect. A large part of this process, I would wager, has resulted from the progressive stigmatization of law enforcement, the military, and masculinity, discouraging all but those thoroughly ensconced in traditional values from entering into these fields. Interesting perspective. I’ve also heard a few law enforcement rejects who couldn’t get hired say the interview process weeds out so many people the bulk of what’s left at dishonest, authoritarian, etc. The only way to pass the interviews is to lie since almost everyone is a criminal nowadays. Having said that, real crime is going down while the police become more militant. The public aren’t going to indefinitely support cops using violent military tactics against drug users and the mentally ill. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/29 "2015-08-15T02:08:25Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Tangentially related, but the black panthers in California used to walk around with openly displayed weapons. They argued Second Amendment rights, nonetheless California legislature passed laws forbiding it spearheaded by none other than Ronald Reagan. I’m on my crap phone or I’d link to a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Vaevictis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f04885/32.png) [@Vaevictis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vaevictis)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/30 "2015-08-15T02:15:46Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Tangentially related, but the black panthers in California used to walk around with openly displayed weapons. I think a long as the barrel was pointing down you were OK under state law. Cops didn’t like having armed, angry black people watching them while they mistreated people, so that law was changed. I’m not sure if law enforcement or the public pushed to change the law but it create political will to disarm people. Yes indeed but don’t forget how many of their leaders died in police confrontations. Admittedly, not when they were awake and openly carrying arms, but privately. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/31 "2015-08-15T02:16:15Z")
I’ve got your back, **Sitnam**. [The Panthers Were Right and Reagan Was Wrong on Gun Control](http://blog.independent.org/2013/09/18/the-panthers-were-right-and-reagan-was-wrong-on-gun-control/) ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/32 "2015-08-15T02:32:47Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I’ve got your back, **Sitnam**. > > [The Panthers Were Right and Reagan Was Wrong on Gun Control](http://blog.independent.org/2013/09/18/the-panthers-were-right-and-reagan-was-wrong-on-gun-control/) Thanks.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/33 "2015-08-18T11:53:11Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > I agree completely. Cops should brutally suppress criminals of all races by whatever means necessary. Fortunately the cops can identify criminals by eyeballing them. > [@Construct](#): > > Part of this is likely the reemergence of a “warrior class” in American society. Young men are raised in patriotic households, told that serving and dying for your country is the highest possible honor, and then head overseas to fight in America’s wars. They return home and join law enforcement or otherwise join security positions and then raise families with the same values, who continue the process. Or after spending many years abroad as an instrument of national foreign policy, they just return home physically and emotionally damaged to become homeless alcoholics and drug addicts before killing themselves. Or maybe, instead, their children decide to go to college. > [@Construct](#): > > We are reaching a point - which, for what it is worth, it not at all atypical historically - where the people who secure our physical wellbeing are culturally and even genetically [different] from those they protect. A large part of this process, I would wager, has resulted from the progressive stigmatization of law enforcement, the military, and masculinity, discouraging all but those thoroughly ensconced in traditional values from entering into these fields. Meat heat redneck bullshit. There have always been people who believe in “might makes right”. People who get a charge out imposing their will on others or believe the only reason they should do something is because someone is physically making them (as opposed to doing it because it is right or makes logical sense). When I hear someone complain about “progressive stigmatization of law enforcement, the military, and masculinity”, I suspect they are going to have a difficult time living in a world that is increasing less tolerant of people getting their way by throwing their weight around. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/34 "2015-08-18T11:55:16Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Tangentially related, but the black panthers in California used to walk around with openly displayed weapons. I think a long as the barrel was pointing down you were OK under state law. Cops didn’t like having armed, angry black people watching them while they mistreated people, so that law was changed. I’m not sure if law enforcement or the public pushed to change the law but it create political will to disarm people. I don’t like untrained, unregulated vigilantes walking around “enforcing the law” either. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/35 "2015-08-18T12:00:00Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Actually there’s little reason for police to escalate things when there isn’t an ongoing threat to public. Lots of good videos of European police deescalating things with armed criminals. I think stealing of millions from the public by not paying grazing fees IS an ongoing threat to the public. The cops will strangle a guy for selling cigarettes but the feds wuss out with a bunch of Dirty Harry wannabees. > [@handsomeharry](#): > > “Should be taken out with whatever means necessary”??? Holy shit… Theses guys posed an active threat to anyone in the area. They don’t deserve the benefit of any doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Gent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gent)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/36 "2015-08-18T12:45:18Z")
Cops very rarely kill anyone. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/37 "2015-08-18T12:51:45Z")
Did you mean to say “whites” but just mis-typed? ---
**Author:** ![Gent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gent)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/38 "2015-08-18T12:57:40Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Did you mean to say “whites” but just mis-typed? Nope. I simply value math. Try it sometime. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/39 "2015-08-18T13:06:14Z")
> [@Gent](#): > > Cops very rarely kill anyone. In most countries, yes. In the US, on the order of [a thousand a year.](http://www.vocativ.com/news/190536/what-16-months-of-police-killings-in-the-u-s-looks-like/) ---
**Author:** ![Gent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gent)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/40 "2015-08-18T13:44:20Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > In most countries, yes. In the US, on the order of [a thousand a year.](http://www.vocativ.com/news/190536/what-16-months-of-police-killings-in-the-u-s-looks-like/) That represents the less than 1% of police stops/arrests in which the alleged assailant is shot, let alone killed. It hardly ever happens - and again, in the rare occasion that it does, it’s almost always justified. And while we’re at it, let’s squash any forced racial-narratives: Between 1999 and 2011, a 1,000 more whites were killed than blacks. And before we go about bringing up population percentages, violent crime per capita is much higher amongst blacks, as is gang affiliation. Math rules! Here’s the most important fact: The vast amount of blacks in this country are non-violent. The vast amount of police officers in this country are responsible and law-abiding. We must remember these things, while refusing media outlets and forced narratives to cloud our logic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199.md?page=3)