# Do the police ever kill some of those "battle-ready" private citizens standing in a group? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2015, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199 "2015-08-06T23:39:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/61 "2015-08-23T04:43:34Z")
Am I the only person who is not impressed with less than one in a hundred interactions resulting in a shooting. It seems a really low hurdle. It sounds like south america numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/62 "2015-08-23T04:51:53Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Am I the only person who is not impressed with less than one in a hundred interactions resulting in a shooting. It seems a really low hurdle. It sounds like south america numbers. I’m just picturing a police officer interacting with 100 people over the course of a month and randomly shooting one of them just to keep things interesting. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/63 "2015-08-23T05:26:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m just picturing a police officer interacting with 100 people over the course of a month and randomly shooting one of them just to keep things interesting. I hate quota systems. They seem so arbitrary! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/64 "2015-08-23T06:15:32Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > In most countries, yes. In the US, on the order of [a thousand a year.](http://www.vocativ.com/news/190536/what-16-months-of-police-killings-in-the-u-s-looks-like/) While I’m not a fan of Gent, I think he is correct that most police officers go there entire career without ever discharging their weapons. That doesn’t of course men that they don’t have far too many who don’t have the discipline for the job. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/65 "2015-08-23T06:55:19Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Fortunately the cops can identify criminals by eyeballing them. Yes, thankfully cops can easily profile criminals by eyesight. This is because crime correlates highly with race, as well as with other presumable factors like facial tattoos, long white t-shirts, sagging pants, etc. > [@msmith537](#): > > Or after spending many years abroad as an instrument of national foreign policy, they just return home physically and emotionally damaged to become homeless alcoholics and drug addicts before killing themselves. > > Or maybe, instead, their children decide to go to college. Your perverse fantasies about soldiers getting their comeuppance and their children being indoctrinated by marxist institutions of higher education do not to reality. > [@msmith537](#): > > Meat heat redneck bullshit. > > There have always been people who believe in “might makes right”. People who get a charge out imposing their will on others or believe the only reason they should do something is because someone is physically making them (as opposed to doing it because it is right or makes logical sense). > > When I hear someone complain about “progressive stigmatization of law enforcement, the military, and masculinity”, I suspect they are going to have a difficult time living in a world that is increasing less tolerant of people getting their way by throwing their weight around. It’s funny how leftists can simultaneously preach the virtues of tolerance while gleefully noting that progressivism is intolerant of traditional attitudes. It’s a perfect example of doublethink in the real world. The contradiction, which people like you fail to acknowledge but generally do implicitly realize, is that both men and women are attracted (in different ways) to strong and powerful people. This means that rather than society becoming feminized and impotent, it will continually be in a perpetual state of struggle between the strong and weak. Moreover, a society cannot long remain standing without the existence of harsh men willing to do violence on its behalf, unless it has no enemies to contend with. Either progressivism will conquer the world, from the deserts of Arabia to the jungles of South America, or those people who remain willing to use violence will conquer you. I don’t like those odds, but then again I don’t care about your cause either. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/66 "2015-08-23T09:08:46Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I hate quota systems. They seem so arbitrary! 😛 “Look, I’m real sorry about this ma’am, but you’re it for this month. Kindly step out of the vehicle and move your hand ever so slightly towards your waistband, please. Yes, I do realize you have a one-piece dress on, ma’am. I don’t make the rules, I’m just doing my job.” ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/67 "2015-08-23T11:02:35Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > When I hear someone complain about “progressive stigmatization of law enforcement, the military, and masculinity”, I suspect they are going to have a difficult time living in a world that is increasing less tolerant of people getting their way by throwing their weight around. And by God the world is going to get its way by throwing its weight around to stop them! I don’t think its true though that people are becoming less tolerant of tough law-enforcement. They’re becoming less tolerant of mistakes and that’s as it should be. But bearing down hard on criminals is as popular as ever in the States (and elsewhere), other than of course with the criminals themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/68 "2015-08-23T13:20:00Z")
Interesting discussion and one point I don’t see being made is that it is important to remember that prevalent political ideology on a local level has a huge effect on interactions between police and the citizens and on the overall crime level as well. When you put in charge of a town or a city a party, where racism, bigotry and misogyny are (almost openly) institutionalized and you let that party stay in control for decades (literally), the result is not hard to predict. Take Baltimore and its recent race riots–even before the riots, the crime level there has been significantly above national average for many years and there’re neighborhoods where 30% of children do not attend school. There’s a reason HBO’s “The Wire” was set in Baltimore. Yet, you would have to go back nearly 50 years to find the last time the city wasn’t run by a Democrat. Same story with Detroit, which is infamous for its crime levels. It’s been half a century, since the last time Democrats weren’t in charge of the city. In fact, one of the recent Detroit’s mayor was so corrupt even by local standards, that he was sentenced to 30 years in prison. Saint Louis is almost an identical copy of Detroit, only with crime rates even higher (getting it on occasion moniker of “Murder Capital of the United States”), and Democrats staying in power seemingly forever. New Orleans can also serve as a carbon copy for Detroit (has there even been a time in the last 100 years when the city wasn’t run by Democrats?), with the homicide rates consistently being the highest in the nation, and with one of its predictably corrupt mayors recently being sentenced to a lengthy prison term. Unless this cycle of misrule changes (and there’s no indication that it will), there’s not much hope for things being improved in terms of policing, the crime and the racial tensions. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/69 "2015-08-23T14:49:58Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > It’s funny how leftists can simultaneously preach the virtues of tolerance while gleefully noting that progressivism is intolerant of traditional attitudes. It’s a perfect example of doublethink in the real world. How is it doublethink to be celebrating the disappearance of so-called traditional attitudes that were intolerant? It’s not clear to me that you understand what doublethink means. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/70 "2015-08-23T15:46:20Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > How is it doublethink to be celebrating the disappearance of so-called traditional attitudes that were intolerant? It’s not clear to me that you understand what doublethink means. I believe the gentleman is trying his hand at the old “if you’re so tolerant, why don’t you tolerate intolerance, huh ?” ploy. The good Lord bless and keep his little heart. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/71 "2015-08-23T15:59:48Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > Take Baltimore and its recent race riots– What “race riots”? What is a race riot? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/72 "2015-08-23T16:32:30Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I believe the gentleman is trying his hand at the old “if you’re so tolerant, why don’t you tolerate intolerance, huh ?” ploy. > > The good Lord bless and keep his little heart. I was going to let it lay as a reductio ad absurdum. But I have to ask"what exactly is the traditional value not tolerated; and Where, and when was that?" He might not think so but I am just as concerned as he is. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/73 "2015-08-23T17:20:15Z")
Let’s look at the statement “intolerance of intolerance is not intolerance”. Because you must simultaneously believe that “intolerance of intolerance” is intolerance (the first part) and “intolerance of intolerance” is not intolerance (the second part), you must believe that something can be intolerance and not-intolerance at the same time. It’s textbook doublethink. Of course, “liberals are the real intolerants” accepts the marxist concept that intolerance of weakness and deviancy is a moral fault. I really don’t care if leftists are intolerant, though if they have an ounce of intellectual honesty, they should. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/74 "2015-08-23T17:50:09Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Bigot much? A bit too close to a personal attack. Keep it about the posts and not the poster. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/75 "2015-08-23T17:51:41Z")
> [@Gent](#): > > In a country of over 300 million people, where gangs rule and control certain locations of our biggest cities, terrorizing children - in less than 1% of police dealings, is a shot fired. Less than 1%! I believe, if 1 % of police-public interactions here involved the police shooting at someone, we’d consider ourselves to be a failed nation. You say 1 % as if it is a low number, but it is horrifyingly high. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/76 "2015-08-23T17:53:10Z")
**Construct** , were you raised by members of the John Birch Society? Your fixation with Marxism is 30 years out of date and it does nothing to persuade anyone that you have any understanding of the real world in 2015. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/77 "2015-08-23T18:00:57Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > Let’s look at the statement “intolerance of intolerance is not intolerance”. Because you must simultaneously believe that “intolerance of intolerance” is intolerance (the first part) and “intolerance of intolerance” is not intolerance (the second part), you must believe that something can be intolerance and not-intolerance at the same time. It’s textbook doublethink. > > Of course, “liberals are the real intolerants” accepts the marxist concept that intolerance of weakness and deviancy is a moral fault. I really don’t care if leftists are intolerant, though if they have an ounce of intellectual honesty, they should. Wow. This makes less than zero sense, in so many ways. I hope that’s not insulting. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/78 "2015-08-23T18:07:51Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > I believe, if 1 % of police-public interactions here involved the police shooting at someone, we’d consider ourselves to be a failed nation. > > You say 1 % as if it is a low number, but it is horrifyingly high. I looked up some numbers. Here (Norway), counting only situations that led to a reported crime as an interaction, police firing shots happened in 1/186 000 interactions. The real number will of course be vastly lower, because the actual number of police public interactions will be far higher. This would indicate that shots are fired more than 18 000 times more frequently by police in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Gent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gent)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/79 "2015-08-23T18:22:03Z")
This is not a subject drenched in idealistic disagreements. This is a subject of math: one side despises math, while the other side embraces it. Police officers do not kill African Americans. African Americans kill African Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Gent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gent)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/80 "2015-08-23T18:29:40Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > I looked up some numbers. Here (Norway), counting only situations that led to a reported crime as an interaction, police firing shots happened in 1/186 000 interactions. The real number will of course be vastly lower, because the actual number of police public interactions will be far higher. > > This would indicate that shots are fired more than 18 000 times more frequently by police in the US. Police officers must fire their weapon in order to stop the bad guy. Unlike any other culture, our’s is riddled with violent gang members who run havoc. It’s a problem that our politicians refuse to address. Even with said gang problem under consideration, in less than 1% of police interactions, a shot is actually fired. It’s quite remarkable. The vast majority of police shootings involve gang members. You know, bad guys. Bad guys who kill innocent children. Bad guys who forced young men to join their lifestyle. Bad guys who take advantage of young women. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199.md?page=5)