# Do the police ever kill some of those "battle-ready" private citizens standing in a group? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2015, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199 "2015-08-06T23:39:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/101 "2015-08-23T23:54:52Z")
> [@Gent](#): > > Only someone truly disconnected would think that Norway has a comparable gang epidemic as the United States. I don’t think that word, “comparable” means what you think it means. Two things can be compared without being equal. In this case, comparing the criminal activity of Norway and the US would likely show a much lower criminal activity in Norway, but how much lower? To support your claim that the US high rate of police shootings is due to a higher density of criminals it would need to be eighteen thousand times lower. Do you think it is? Do you understand percentages and comparisons? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/102 "2015-08-23T23:58:39Z")
> [@Gent](#): > > There’s seriously a guy comparing the gang violence in the United States, to the gang violence in Norway. > > I’m guessing this guy lives in Ann Arbor, MI; Madison, WI; Austin, TX… Something along those lines. That’s a warning. Right there. Do not accuse other posters of lying. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/103 "2015-08-24T00:07:14Z")
> [@Gent](#): > > There’s seriously a guy comparing the gang violence in the United States, to the gang violence in Norway. > > I’m guessing this guy lives in Ann Arbor, MI; Madison, WI; Austin, TX… Something along those lines. Oh it took me a second. You’re anti college town. You must live in a heavily gang infiltrated area? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/104 "2015-08-24T00:14:48Z")
> [@Gent](#): > > Only someone truly disconnected would think that Norway has a comparable gang epidemic as the United States. I’m done with your silliness. > > On to the next guy… > > What the Bundy people did was not right. The fact that they legally owned their guns does not make their actions okay. However owning their guns legally, and having legal carry permits did allow them to occupy without being stopped by the police. Once they became a threat–which they were–it was too late. The police did not want to let the situation grow into a violent haze - hence they wisely defused things. > > Once again, what happened at Bundy’s ranch was a one-in-a-million event. It never happens. > > Further defusing the narrative stealthily hidden in the op’s original post, is the fact that more white people are killed by police officers than black people. You must acknowledge this. When you factor in the disproportionate amount of violent crime among African Americans, along with the disproportionate gang inclusion, it’s a remarkable statistic. > > Embrace math! I think you are committing a logical fallacy. If there are more whites murdered by police, and if there is more crime in black neighborhoods, it does not logically follow that there is no institutional racism expressed by the cops in the USA. They would not stand down for anyone except a white person in the USA. Nobody is allowed to institute a “threat” as you say and simply get a pass. If they backed off of a confrontation with the Bloods and simply left, would you say it was “wise” You would make progress here by posting news of events wherein a white person was treated in the same way that Eric Garner, Tamir RIce, et al were treated. Until you do that you won’t make a point here. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/105 "2015-08-24T00:23:36Z")
> [@Gent](#): > > Further defusing the narrative stealthily hidden in the op’s original post, is the fact that more white people are killed by police officers than black people. You must acknowledge this. When you factor in the disproportionate amount of violent crime among African Americans, along with the disproportionate gang inclusion, it’s a remarkable statistic. > > Embrace math! In absolute terms, it’s possible (though since police precincts do not track shootings, actual numbers are impossible to come by and guesstimates are what even the FBI has to work with). But absolute numbers are \*worthless \*in this context. What you need to look at are the proportional ones. Blacks only represent something like 12% of the total US population, after all. And in proportional terms US police do seem to arrest, and shoot, more black and latino people than whites of equivalent social classes & over equivalent crimes than can be handwaved away as statistical artifacts. That’s just a fact. You’re free to interpret it anyway you chose (and I have a pretty rough idea of how you, and **Construct** , choose to interpret them ; same as you interpret the proportional representation of African-Americans in street gangs. Which is the wrong way, BTW), but you’re not entitled to your own facts ;). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/106 "2015-08-24T00:25:35Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Oh it took me a second. You’re anti college town. Well, one sympathizes. The fashion choices there are pretty appalling. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/107 "2015-08-24T00:25:53Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > people who are minorities…are much more likely to be criminals and consequently get shot because they pose a threat to law enforcement officers. (snipped by me) Yup, racism is dead in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/108 "2015-08-24T00:34:23Z")
It’s not racist because it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/109 "2015-08-24T01:11:20Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > It’s not racist because it’s true. What an incredibly original statement! I’ve never heard that before. ---
**Author:** ![Gent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gent)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/110 "2015-08-24T01:30:17Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > That’s a warning. Right there. Do not accuse other posters of lying. I didn’t call him a liar. Settle down, overzealous Mod. I accused him of making an illogical comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Gent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gent)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/111 "2015-08-24T01:35:02Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > I don’t think that word, “comparable” means what you think it means. > > Two things can be compared without being equal. In this case, comparing the criminal activity of Norway and the US would likely show a much lower criminal activity in Norway, but how much lower? > > To support your claim that the US high rate of police shootings is due to a higher density of criminals it would need to be eighteen thousand times lower. Do you think it is? > > Do you understand percentages and comparisons? Why are you struggling so much? In countries where gangs maintain an impactful presence, police shooting will naturally be high. Norway is not a country with a gang problem. Comparing the two in any way is silly. The comparable is between 2 countries with high densities of gang violence. I can’t help you any further. You’re struggling. Seek help elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/112 "2015-08-24T01:40:12Z")
> [@Gent](#): > > I didn’t call him a liar. Settle down, overzealous Mod. > > I accused him of making an illogical comparison. I don’t appreciate your insinuations. I’ve lived in college towns all my life. What’s wrong with them? Too many smart people in some sort of “cabal” gonna put one over on you and the other real Americans? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/113 "2015-08-24T01:40:39Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > The dead hand of cultural marxism continues to threaten the existence of Western civilization. “Cultural Marxism” is an imaginary effect created by nuts on the paranoid Right that has no basis in reality. It is, basically, one more Conspiracy Theory only marginally less nutty than claims about the Illuminati. It is propounded by essays in such flaky media as _WorldNetDaily_ and should be regarded with due consideration of its source. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/114 "2015-08-24T01:44:11Z")
> [@Gent](#): > > I didn’t call him a liar. Settle down, overzealous Mod. In response to a statement that he lived in Norway, you asserted that he lived in a U.S. university town. That is an accusation of lying and while I will let this post pass, I will note that your posts are doing nothing to encourage us to allow you to continue. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/115 "2015-08-24T01:47:48Z")
> [@Gent](#): > > Why are you struggling so much? > > In countries where gangs maintain an impactful presence, police shooting will naturally be high. Norway is not a country with a gang problem. Comparing the two in any way is silly. > > The comparable is between 2 countries with high densities of gang violence. > > I can’t help you any further. You’re struggling. Seek help elsewhere. You got to come up with something better, and more detailed. You have a gang fetish and that is a problem with trying to reason things out and make sense of world events. Maybe you could give cite on how many shootings are gang related? When you say “Gang” do you mean “black”? Cause that is a logical and rhetorical problem. Define “impactful presence” “high densities of gang violence”. It’s just the gangs on one side and the Commies on the other for you isn’t it? Or are they the same? ---
**Author:** ![Gent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gent)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/116 "2015-08-24T01:49:10Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > In absolute terms, it’s possible (though since police precincts do not track shootings, actual numbers are impossible to come by and guesstimates are what even the FBI has to work with). But absolute numbers are \*worthless \*in this context. What you need to look at are the proportional ones. Blacks only represent something like 12% of the total US population, after all. > > And in proportional terms US police do seem to arrest, and shoot, more black and latino people than whites of equivalent social classes & over equivalent crimes than can be handwaved away as statistical artifacts. That’s just a fact. > > You’re free to interpret it anyway you chose (and I have a pretty rough idea of how you, and **Construct** , choose to interpret them ; same as you interpret the proportional representation of African-Americans in street gangs. Which is the wrong way, BTW), but you’re not entitled to your own facts ;). \*Blacks are responsible for 38% of the violent crime, despite accounting for only 12% of the population. \*Whites account for just 10% of the gang population, despite accounting for 60% of the population (Latinos 44%; Black 37%). \*When a black person is murdered, there’s an over 90% chance that it’s at the hands of another black person. \*Police precincts do keep detailed reports of shooting (get your facts straight). Drumroll… Over 85% of police shooting involve gang activity. Some of you people are beyond help. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/117 "2015-08-24T01:50:15Z")
> [@Gent](#): > > This is not a subject drenched in idealistic disagreements. This is a subject of math: one side despises math, while the other side embraces it. > Police officers do not kill African Americans. African Americans kill African Americans. So… you despise math? ---
**Author:** ![Gent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gent)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/118 "2015-08-24T01:50:37Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > You got to come up with something better, and more detailed. You have a gang fetish and that is a problem with trying to reason things out and make sense of world events. > > Maybe you could give cite on how many shootings are gang related? When you say “Gang” do you mean “black”? Cause that is a logical and rhetorical problem. > > Define “impactful presence” “high densities of gang violence”. > > It’s just the gangs on one side and the Commies on the other for you isn’t it? Or are they the same? Another person disconnected from the impact of gangs. Only said person could make such a naive statement. ---
**Author:** ![Gent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gent)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/119 "2015-08-24T01:51:44Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So… you despise math? Good one? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2015, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199/120 "2015-08-24T01:53:00Z")
> [@Gent](#): > > Good one? It seemed a logical conclusion given the conditions you specified. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-police-ever-kill-some-of-those-battle-ready-private-citizens-standing-in-a-group/727199.md?page=7)