# Do the pros of Berkeley's gender-pronoun-ban outweigh the cons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361 "2019-07-20T19:24:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361/1 "2019-07-20T19:24:55Z")
Don’t want to start a debate on LGBT/genderism/non-genderism itself (we have many other threads,) but just want to ask about the \*\*practicality \*\*of this: Does this mean that police will not be allowed to describe a suspect as a man or a woman, and can only say “person of interest” or something non-gendered like that? That wouldn’t help the public in identifying the suspect. Are medical professionals allowed to say that a patient is a man or a woman? (makes a big difference if a patient needs a vasectomy or hysterectomy, for instance.) If a child goes missing, are the authorities allowed to say that it’s a boy missing or a girl missing, or does it have to be non-gendered pronoun child? Again, that wouldn’t help the public in finding the missing kid at all. If a school prided itself on increasing its representation of women (i.e., “our student body used to be only 12% women, but now is 45%!”) then doesn’t this mean they couldn’t convey such a fact anymore? It sounds like from a practical standpoint, the cons significantly outweigh the pros, especially in light of all the names, policies, practices that would have to be changed. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361/2 "2019-07-20T19:32:22Z")
Is there a link missing from the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2019, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361/3 "2019-07-20T19:49:38Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > […] just want to ask about the \*\*practicality \*\*of this: > > Does this mean that police will not be allowed to describe a suspect as a man or a woman, and can only say “person of interest” or something non-gendered like that? That wouldn’t help the public in identifying the suspect. Are medical professionals allowed to say that a patient is a man or a woman? (makes a big difference if a patient needs a vasectomy or hysterectomy, for instance.) > > If a child goes missing, are the authorities allowed to say that it’s a boy missing or a girl missing, or does it have to be non-gendered pronoun child? Again, that wouldn’t help the public in finding the missing kid at all. If a school prided itself on increasing its representation of women (i.e., “our student body used to be only 12% women, but now is 45%!”) then doesn’t this mean they couldn’t convey such a fact anymore? > > It sounds like from a practical standpoint, the cons significantly outweigh the pros, especially in light of all the names, policies, practices that would have to be changed. 😕 😕 If [this](https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2019/07/18/berkeley-plans-remove-gendered-pronouns-its-municipal-code/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.dd7e64d186ba) is what you’re talking about (“Berkeley plans to remove gendered pronouns from its municipal code”), then I fail to see how it would affect any of your examples at all. AFAICT, the purpose is simply to make Berkeley’s own **code of municipal regulations** non-gender-specific in its language. That is, the code would presumably refer to “firefighters” rather than “firemen” and “firewomen”, “mail carriers” rather than “mailmen”, “meter readers” instead of “meter maids”, singular “they” rather than “he” or “she” as a gender-indefinite singular pronoun, and so on. Nowhere, AFAIK, is it proposed to restrict what municipal employees can say about the gender of individuals when it’s pertinent to what they’re talking about. Is there some right-wing huffery-puffery making the rounds claiming that Berkeley police henceforth won’t be allowed to mention the gender of a suspect, or something? If so, that sounds extremely implausible, but please link to it so we can check if it has any discernible merit (and if not, at least we’ll get a good laugh out of it). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2019, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361/4 "2019-07-20T20:20:02Z")
Ah, Berkeley! Or Berzerkly, as it is fondly known to us on the conservative wing of the extreme left! First city in America to have a foreign policy! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2019, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361/5 "2019-07-20T20:41:38Z")
I know lawyers who do legal drafting here in Canada. They’ve been doing non-gender vocab on statutes for 30 years. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2019, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361/6 "2019-07-20T21:00:50Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Don’t want to start a debate on LGBT/genderism/non-genderism itself (we have many other threads,) but just want to ask about the \*\*practicality \*\*of this: > Does this mean that police will not be allowed to describe a suspect as a man or a woman, and can only say “person of interest” or something non-gendered like that? That wouldn’t help the public in identifying the suspect. Are medical professionals allowed to say that a patient is a man or a woman? (makes a big difference if a patient needs a vasectomy or hysterectomy, for instance.) > > If a child goes missing, are the authorities allowed to say that it’s a boy missing or a girl missing, or does it have to be non-gendered pronoun child? Again, that wouldn’t help the public in finding the missing kid at all. If a school prided itself on increasing its representation of women (i.e., “our student body used to be only 12% women, but now is 45%!”) then doesn’t this mean they couldn’t convey such a fact anymore? > > It sounds like from a practical standpoint, the cons significantly outweigh the pros, especially in light of all the names, policies, practices that would have to be changed. It sounds like you have no idea what you’re talking about with respect to Berkeley’s policies. No link, no description of what Berkeley is actually doing… nothing. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2019, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361/7 "2019-07-20T21:13:52Z")
This is crazy! How are they gonna make babies if they neuter everyone! This is political correctness gone mad. Eta: or, what iiandyiiii said. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361/8 "2019-07-21T00:22:54Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Don’t want to start a debate on LGBT/genderism/non-genderism itself (we have many other threads,) but just want to ask about the \*\*practicality \*\*of this: > Does this mean that police will not be allowed to describe a suspect as a man or a woman, and can only say “person of interest” or something non-gendered like that? That wouldn’t help the public in identifying the suspect. Are medical professionals allowed to say that a patient is a man or a woman? (makes a big difference if a patient needs a vasectomy or hysterectomy, for instance.) > > If a child goes missing, are the authorities allowed to say that it’s a boy missing or a girl missing, or does it have to be non-gendered pronoun child? Again, that wouldn’t help the public in finding the missing kid at all. If a school prided itself on increasing its representation of women (i.e., “our student body used to be only 12% women, but now is 45%!”) then doesn’t this mean they couldn’t convey such a fact anymore? > > It sounds like from a practical standpoint, the cons significantly outweigh the pros, especially in light of all the names, policies, practices that would have to be changed. Why didn’t you ask if Berkeley was going to impose the death penalty on anyone who wears gendered clothing, like pants or a skirt? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361/9 "2019-07-21T01:14:46Z")
**Velocity** , are you planning on explaining what the hell you’re talking about with this OP? Maybe with a link? ---
**Author:** ![Ronald\_Raygun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c67d28/32.png) [@Ronald\_Raygun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ronald_Raygun)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361/10 "2019-07-21T01:31:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > **Velocity** , are you planning on explaining what the hell you’re talking about with this OP? Maybe with a link? Berkeley is removing gender-specific language from its municipal code. This only affects about 40 or so words. “Fireman” is now “firefighter”, “manhole” is now “maintenance hole”, and so on. The updates will cost the city $600. A police officer can certainly refer to someone as a man. I don’t see why they wouldn’t be able to. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361/11 "2019-07-21T01:41:20Z")
> [@Ronald\_Raygun](#): > > Berkeley is removing gender-specific language from its municipal code. This only affects about 40 or so words. “Fireman” is now “firefighter”, “manhole” is now “maintenance hole”, and so on. The updates will cost the city $600. > > A police officer can certainly refer to someone as a man. I don’t see why they wouldn’t be able to. **Velocity** , is this what you’re referring to? If so, where did you get the fear-mongering nonsense in your OP? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361/12 "2019-07-21T02:00:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It sounds like you have no idea what you’re talking about with respect to Berkeley’s policies. No link, no description of what Berkeley is actually doing… nothing. Srsly. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361/13 "2019-07-21T02:26:14Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > This is crazy! How are they gonna make babies if they neuter everyone! This is political correctness gone mad. Just wait until you hear what they’re planning to do to Manfred Mann. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361/14 "2019-07-21T03:20:23Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361/15 "2019-07-21T03:31:27Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Ah, Berkeley! Or Berzerkly, as it is fondly known to us on the conservative wing of the extreme left! First city in America to have a foreign policy! That’s the _People’s Republik_ of Berzerkley to you, bub. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361/16 "2019-07-21T03:42:07Z")
Typical right wing fear mongering over-reaction. 1. Do something minor. 2. Have Republicans take the issue to it’s farthest, illogical conclusion and insist that this is what is happening. 3. Have it get distorted, further exaggerated with a pile of outright lies on top as the story makes its way through the right wing media and blog circus. “We’re changing Fireman to Firefighter in our policies and documentation.” becomes “You won’t be able to refer to someone as a man anymore, they’re making it illegal.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361/17 "2019-07-21T13:24:47Z")
Can I call bullshit, or by Berkeley rules is it now cattleshit? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361/18 "2019-07-21T13:29:38Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Can I call bullshit, or by Berkeley rules is it now cattleshit? Ungulateshit is a lot more inclusive. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361/19 "2019-07-21T15:43:23Z")
Orderist. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361/20 "2019-07-21T16:18:02Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Typical right wing fear mongering over-reaction. > > 1. Do something minor. > 2. Have Republicans take the issue to it’s farthest, illogical conclusion and insist that this is what is happening. > 3. Have it get distorted, further exaggerated with a pile of outright lies on top as the story makes its way through the right wing media and blog circus. > > “We’re changing Fireman to Firefighter in our policies and documentation.” > becomes > “You won’t be able to refer to someone as a man anymore, they’re making it illegal.” And “Robinson’s office estimates it will cost only $600 to implement the change to the municipal code.” prompted a long discussion on a local radio station about how that _must_ mean $600/per taxpayer- because $600 total makes no sense ,according to one of the hosts and a bunch of callers. Of course $600 total is perfectly reasonable total for what amounts to a search for : “he, she , him ,her, his , hers” and replacing them with " “the Title" , "“that Title” or "“the Title’s” as appropriate. My guess is that Berkeley went from “fireman” to “firefighter” years ago, so actual titles wouldn’t need to be changed now. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-pros-of-berkeleys-gender-pronoun-ban-outweigh-the-cons/837361.md?page=2)