# Do the Seventh and Tenth Commandments no longer apply? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2001, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-seventh-and-tenth-commandments-no-longer-apply/88848 "2001-10-22T13:29:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-seventh-and-tenth-commandments-no-longer-apply/88848/21 "2001-10-22T19:21:47Z")
Count me with those who say that pursuing the relationship is a bad idea. Basically, a person who is friends with someone whose marriage is on the rocks should be working to help repair the marriage, not get romantically involved with one of the spouses. The proper thing is to get them to counseling together. Indeed, said person should become friends with _both_ spouses, or with neither, IMO. Unfortunately, you’ve crossed the line and now have “romantic” feelings for each other. Talk to any marriage counselor, and you’ll find that the feeling of euphoria will fade eventually for anyone. If root problems aren’t addressed, there’s no reason that the cycle will continue–that in your case, if you pursued a relationship with this woman, that N months down the line, you’d be in the same situation as they are now. Urge them to go to counseling together, and get away from the relationship, before you do it more harm. If you were still “just friends” I’d see it as reasonable for you to stick around and be moral support for the counseling, but that’s not an option anymore IMO. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-seventh-and-tenth-commandments-no-longer-apply/88848/22 "2001-10-22T19:44:45Z")
Well, a promise was made to Bill. Or perhaps it was not–we don’t know the terms of this particular marriage, do we? But in the absence of knowing otherwise, I’d assume that a promise had been made, pertaining to things such as fidelity and exclusivity. (Silly practice, but a common one nonetheless). I think it is immoral of Chelsie, at least, to toddle off to bed with Superdude without telling Bill that those promises are null and void, that he cannot count on fidelity and exclusivity from her. (I do not think she needs his permission, nor does she need to tell him when, where, with whom, or how often). I don’t know if it is necessarily **immoral** of Superdude to toddle off to bed with Chelsie if Bill is not told, but, speaking as a guy who doesn’t do marriage and doesn’t respect it as an institution, and who HAS been there–it ain’t **dignified**! Believe me, if I ever again have sex with a married woman, she has to renounce any prior vows of monogamy and faithfulness and etc beforehand. This is IMHO, of course, and YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-seventh-and-tenth-commandments-no-longer-apply/88848/23 "2001-10-22T20:07:15Z")
Superdude wrote: > [@](#): > > I hardly think that Ann Landers and Dear Abby are credible sources of morality. They strike me as being very antiquated and conservative in their thinking. Particularly Ann Landers. She doesn’t believe in sex outside of marriage, even in a committed relationship where no adultery is involved. When a yound woman wrote to her asking for contraceptive advice, Ann lambasted her for daring to even **think** of doing to horizontal lambada before she’d signed a marriage contract. Ironically, Ann Landers has a rather open-minded stance on homosexuality. So I guess in her mind, it’s OK to have sex outside of marriage **IF** your partner is the same sex as you. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Yue\_Han](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/eada6e/32.png) [@Yue\_Han](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yue_Han)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-seventh-and-tenth-commandments-no-longer-apply/88848/24 "2001-10-22T20:49:40Z")
> [@](#): > > He’s stayed overly concerned about where she goes and what she does. He’s gone to the history bar on their computer to figure out what websites she’s visited over the course of the day. The whole working late thing. I once heard a quote that went something along the lines of “who should fear theft more than a thief?” These seem to be the acts of a man who is worried his wife may be having an affair. Which might make him seem paranoid if you weren’t here asking us if its ok for you to have an affair with her. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone who tried this and it worked before I read Feynn’s post. I have heard plenty of stories of people who spent years waiting for someone to break up with their spouse, being strung along. Just a bit of unsolicted advice. –John ---
**Author:** ![CheapBastid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8baadc/32.png) [@CheapBastid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheapBastid)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-seventh-and-tenth-commandments-no-longer-apply/88848/25 "2001-10-22T22:32:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beadalin \* > **With all due respect, Superdude, I think you’re already well down the rationalization road.** I just wanted to echo this sentiment. Do whatever you want to (you’re going to any way). ---
**Author:** ![PhiloVance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@PhiloVance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhiloVance)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-seventh-and-tenth-commandments-no-longer-apply/88848/26 "2001-10-22T22:59:08Z")
Methinks you’re just trying to get a second opinion. I think the lady in question already has 2 strikes…you may be the third… **don’t be** 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-seventh-and-tenth-commandments-no-longer-apply/88848/27 "2001-10-22T23:03:38Z")
> [@](#): > > …it seems like you are saying “morality is defined solitarily by the individual”. > We do whatever we please, as long as the societal laws aren’t broken, and if they are then we aren’t caught. > > Are you saying that the kid who steals because his parents taught him is acting on him morals, which is the same as a person who does charity work because he was taught so? These are 2 moral people? > > Is morality a definition, or just the rules of conduct which everyone self defines? Join me in the Objective Morality thread, **justin**. That is not what I am saying; I am saying that all moral decisions are, necessarily, made by individuals (and this would include the individuals attempting to define a corporate morality). Whether morality exists objectively, independent of the individual, is what that other thread is devoted to. But the individual makes the decision to follow his or her ethics or not, in the last analysis. The interesting implication of your post, which I’ve seen elsewhere when Christians are discussing ethics with non-Christians, is that absent God’s commands and social pressure, one would be justified in lying, cheating, stealing, killing, adulterizing, coveting, and for all of that making graven images. This led me once, when questioned if I thought we Christians were special for having had experiences of God which others did not, to react that maybe we needed it more than most. There are a lot of ethical atheists, agnostics, and Neopagans here. Somehow they’ve evolved a morality not based on commands from on high. Think it through. Then come give us your perspective on that other thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ross](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@Ross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ross)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-seventh-and-tenth-commandments-no-longer-apply/88848/28 "2001-10-22T23:30:51Z")
Coupla points. It’s wise to remember that one can behave according to one’s conscience and still do really horribly bad things. Cites: many nazis; Saul when he stood by and watched Stephen be stoned to death; etc. Our consciences can easily be wrong. All I’m saying is, bear that in mind. And I’d like to half-assedly address the marriage thing. There are many bad marriages (I mean _really_ bad), there are many divorced Christians. My own Pastor divorced and remarried. As far as I can see he’s still one of the most solidly Good men I know. However I do still believe that it depends on how far you’re prepared to go for God. If you take a vow for life, He’ll make it possible to turn a bad marriage into a source of strength. One may be lonely, of course, horribly lonely, and grace is grace, and adultery is all over the place, so of course divorce isn’t an unreachable option. But from a Christian point of view, something really beautiful can come out of any suffering. I’m not saying don’t marry her, or anything - that’s your call. But if she really wants to go for God, maybe her prayer life would be awesomely improved to a world-changing level by her being forced to draw near to God all the time for affection, or something like that. These obediences are the things that make saints. I’ve been that faithful, that trusting, maybe once in my whole life, and it was like a spiritual afterburner. You just end up on a totally new level. If she doesn’t want to go for God the commandments are the wrong place to look for advice. Maybe a solid, genuinely sold-out priest/monk/minister/rabbi could give better advice than I. Personally I’d probably do the adultery in a distracted moment and use it to justify divorce and remarriage. But I can still see what I _should_ do. ---
**Author:** ![PlanMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2bfe46/32.png) [@PlanMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlanMan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-seventh-and-tenth-commandments-no-longer-apply/88848/29 "2001-10-23T00:05:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by justinh \* > \*\*Superdude, > my advice, for what it is worth, run as far away from her as possible. she has a kid from a previous relationship. and now she is in a marriage that she is willing to cheat on. doesn’t sound promising. \*\* First, to answer the OP - the Commandments still apply, but since you claim to be “not religious” why do you care? The point by **justinh** is probably the most to the point here. Her child from a previous relationship - was marriage involved? Now she is married and thinking about cheating with you. Are you OK with the near certainty that when she tires of you, she will cheat with someone else? It seems clear she doesn’t regard serial polygamy as “cheating” - how do you feel, Superdude? Because you have asked if it is OK for you to cheat with her, the concept of cheating is real to you. So, again, how will you feel in a few months, years, when Chelsie becomes bored with you? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-seventh-and-tenth-commandments-no-longer-apply/88848/30 "2001-10-23T00:20:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > So I guess in her mind, it’s OK to have sex outside of marriage **IF** your partner is the same sex as you. :rolleyes: Well of course. After all, that’s not **really** sex. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![PlanMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2bfe46/32.png) [@PlanMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlanMan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-seventh-and-tenth-commandments-no-longer-apply/88848/31 "2001-10-23T03:38:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PlanMan \* > First, to answer the OP - the Commandments still apply, but since you claim to be “not religious” why do you care? > [sub] > The point by **justinh** is probably the most to the point here. Her child from a previous relationship - was marriage involved? Now she is married and thinking about cheating with you. Are you OK with the near certainty that when she tires of you, she will cheat with someone else? It seems clear she doesn’t regard serial polygamy as “cheating” - how do you feel, Superdude? Because you have asked if it is OK for you to cheat with her, the concept of cheating is real to you. So, again, how will you feel in a few months, years, when Chelsie becomes bored with you? \*\*[/sub] \ Regarding my last … I do not know Chelsie, and so have no place to characterize her, well, character. After, all, as the T-shirt says, ‘sometimes you have to kiss a lotta frogs before you find your Prince’ … Superdude, here’s hoping you are her Prince. Just cool it until after Chelsie and her husband are twain. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-seventh-and-tenth-commandments-no-longer-apply/88848/32 "2001-10-24T00:24:36Z")
easy moral check: would i be okay with my behaivour as the lead headline in the local newspaper? would i be able to introduce x to my great aunt mildred at tea? ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-seventh-and-tenth-commandments-no-longer-apply/88848/33 "2001-10-24T22:21:20Z")
God aside (gosh is that heresy to say that?), a lot of our “morality” comes from the desire to create a stable family for the sake of the children. So while you and Chelsie are “in love” with each other, you simply cannot enter a mature relationship without considering the repercussions on the people around you. Bill, for one, who is perhaps an innocent person in the relationship. Your family. Will they love and accept a new divorced woman with a child from yet another relationship? And, of course, her daughter. Because regardless of the fact that Bill isn’t her “biological” father, he is her father-figure nonetheless. He has provided a home for her. He has cared for her. And now you are planning on taking his daughter from him and tearing the foundation out from under her. Again. I had a relationship with a married man a few years back and it ended badly. He didn’t have children but he did have a wife who loved him and who was innocent of wrongdoing. In my utter self-absorption it did not occur to me that _I_ could be responsible for wreaking such havoc on people and it saddens me to this day how heartless I was to disregard his wife entirely. The look on her face when I told her we were involved will haunt me until the day I die. So, superdude, I appreciate the fact that you love this woman. However, her track record isn’t spotless and if you continue down this path, you WILL cause pain to Bill and their daughter. And any joy you feel by being free to marry Chelsie will be tempered by self-loathing and a sudden suspicion of her. It happens. And please, don’t kid yourself that Bill has no feelings for her, or that his lack of attention (her side of the story, btw, not HIS and I’ve learned the hard way that people you trust DO lie. Hank told me that he and his wife never made love. He LIED.) is some sort of absolution for you. Good luck to both of you. Well, actually to all 4 of you. ---
**Author:** ![Krispy\_Original](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ec9cab/32.png) [@Krispy\_Original](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krispy_Original)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-seventh-and-tenth-commandments-no-longer-apply/88848/34 "2001-10-25T08:03:21Z")
Hey Superdude, after you and Chelsie are married for a while, would you mind if she and I sneak around behind your back and have an (emotional or sexual) affair? Wouldn’t want it done to you?..then don’t do it to others dude. I’d say that’s a simple rule of thumb. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-seventh-and-tenth-commandments-no-longer-apply/88848/35 "2001-10-25T12:31:28Z")
My first marriage was to a cheater. With distance, I’ve come to the following opinion on the morality of the situation. His girlfriends made no promises to me. He did. They barely knew me, he did. My husband was not my property (slavery having been outlawed some time ago), and was a big boy capable of making his own decisions. To the best of my knowledge, he was not raped by any of his girlfriends. Therefore, as much as I’d like to blame them, I feel that their karmic debt load is significantly lower than his. As Krispy has said, there is the who “do unto others” thing, so they don’t have a clean slate. But they, you, and PunditLisa are not the one responsible for keeping vows. Chelsie on the other hand, in in the karmic manure pool. She did make a vow, her husband is laboring under the impression that vow is still good. At the very least she needs to communicate to him that the terms of their marriage have changed. She could do this by moving out, by serving papers, or by having a conversation (“Honey, I know our original marriage vows included fidelity, but I’m going to boink Superdude. I’d like to stay married to you and keep living here in the meantime, though, or at least until I get up the nerve to leave.”) Best wishes. BTW, if this does work out, watch out for the disappointment on the other side. When the relationship no longer has the sneaking around and the stress, and when you have something to yourself that you formerly didn’t have, sometimes it can be a real letdown. Daily life with someone is never as exiciting as what you are going through right now. Make sure you are really, truly interested in Chelsie, and not the excitement of the situation or the thought of saving her from a bad situation. And make sure Chelsie is really interested in you and not just in you not being Bill. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-seventh-and-tenth-commandments-no-longer-apply/88848/36 "2001-10-25T13:05:51Z")
About her marriage. Have you any first hand knowledge of the goings on? Or are you relying solely on her accounts? You say they do not make love. How do you know? Has _HE_ told you this? Have you had any interactions with him? You see where I’m going with this, don’t you? A common scene. A man meets a woman. They have an attraction for each other. The man is married. He complains to her that the marriage is a loveless sham. That there is no intimacy at all. Hasn’t been for years. He reaches out to her and they get involved. There is talk of him leaving the marriage soon, when economic factors are more favorable and what-not. A few months pass. Turns out later that he was less than honest about the state of his marriage. There was, and is, considerable ‘intimacy’ going on. His wife was under the impression that they were a happy couple, and the man has no _real_ plans for leaving his family. I’m not saying this is what is going on. I’m saying that unless you know him pretty well too, it’s possible. Maybe she’s telling the truth. Tell her to bite the bullet and leave him, then take up with her. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-seventh-and-tenth-commandments-no-longer-apply/88848.md?page=1)