# Do the two Genesis stories contradict each other? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 18, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917 "2012-01-18T18:51:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917/21 "2012-01-18T22:06:12Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > It seems to me that two different stories that are come from two different traditions in ancient Judaism are being placed in the ‘magic’ book to reconcile some ancient schism. > > This seems to be associated with Talmudic myth of Lilith. > What we read now, appears to be a successful attempt by latter-day priests of Judea to subvert the history of the early matriarchal and matrilineal traditions in place before the time of Abram. > > Being born from Adam subverts the very being of Eve. > Being created alongside him doesn’t. > > The order of creation is obviously silly, and can be recognized by the ignorance of the time or perhaps even by some one or few priests who just ‘pushed it through committee’ because it was late in the day and they were hungry. > > This wasn’t created by a bunch of Rhodes scholars, after all. These guys were just barely agricultural. Apparently mostly goat herders (not that there is anything wrong with that). > > When do we think the oral traditions of this myth occurred? ~6000 years ago? > > We, our modern culture, have a serious difficulty understanding the underlying movements of mind and word of the men (and some women, I suppose) who created this myth. I wonder if they ever imagined that we, this post-modern world of Internet connected semi-anonymous tribes-folk, would still be even be aware of what they wrought. > > It still astonishes me that we care. > It is so obviously a transparent “Just So” set of stories, that even when told well, come off as being contrived from the very air. > > Humans aren’t made of clay. Women are equals (if not superior) to men. Plants don’t grow without sunlight, and danggit the entire freaking planet would have been frozen before the ignition of Sol. Don’t even get me going about talking serpents and who lied in the Paradisio. > > Some of my colleagues have tried to tell me that most Middle-eastern stories were told twice. Once for context, the other for value. I think they are fitting things into what they want to be true. > > But, I am not a biblical scholar. > I could be wrong. > > I would love to see what others say about this. IIRC the current explanation is that after the Assyrians invaded and took over the north from the Cannonites the displaced in Judea took their “war god” Yahwah as their “only one” or their most favorite, in an attempt to gain hist powers to win back the north. After a short time of this being their favorite people saw it as the only god at all. With this “discovery” of Deuteronomy, a 300 year old lost book of Moses that conveniently declared all other gods as heretical while also meeting the needs of the contemporary leaders all of the other gods were deemed heretical and many books were written to change them to be monotheistic. There are still a few references to the original Cannonite gods of the son Baal, the mother god Asherah and their father god of El, who was redefined to be Yahweh. Women were pretty much pure property at the time and the story fits their role in that point in time. I don’t think there was as much of a drive to reduce their power at that point in history but there was a huge push towards monotheism. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917/22 "2012-01-18T22:12:30Z")
Here is an OK video that explains some of this opinion [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg) ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917/23 "2012-01-18T22:18:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What do modern theologians say-- it’s not supposed to be taken literally anyway? That’s exactly what they say. The notion that the creation account should be interpreted literally is a relatively recent development (within the last few hundred years) and is uncommon among theologians except for the most conservative fundamentalists. > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > So apparently some translations try to brush this under the carpet by changing the tenses to avoid contradiction. Based on this I started over from the beginning with the Oxford annotated version. How do you know which translation is more accurate? Do you speak ancient Hebrew? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917/24 "2012-01-18T22:25:39Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Here is an OK video that explains some of this opinion > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg) I was going to link to the exact same video 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917/25 "2012-01-18T22:33:52Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > We agreed that we didn’t want to say God couldn’t have created the world in 144 hours, but neither of us feel that is how God works. Come on, 2000 years ago he said he was returning soon. Well, there was traffic, and then His wife called and asked Him to pick up some things, and you know how time slips away. ETA: My pastor and I have an unspoken agreement to never discuss theology. Why I have a pastor isn’t entirely clear to me, either. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917/26 "2012-01-18T23:29:02Z")
Definitely **not** my position, but I heard an inerrantist explanation for the humans/animal creation difference. > [@Malthus](#): > > For one, the order of creation is different. In the first myth, humans were expressly created, male and female together, dead last - after animals - on the 6th day. > > In the second myth, a primordial man was expressly created first, prior to animals. > > Then animals: > > And finally, a primordial woman. > [@](#): > > So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air Key word here is “formed,” the word used in Gen 2; not “created,” the word used in Gen 1. They could have been created but not yet formed. > [@](#): > > So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. It doesn’t say “he created them at the same time” so he could have created them at different times on the 6th day. So on the 6th day god creates man, “forms” the already “created” animals, then creates woman. No contradiction. Don’t know the inerrantist fix for the plant thing though. Just to be clear I think this a load of crap and a little piece of my soul just died explaining it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917/27 "2012-01-18T23:32:00Z")
I think the idea of the Babylonian creation myth being grafted on as G-1 makes the most sense. The video linked to above makes this case. Good video, BTW. I think I’ve seen those ideas before, but he presents it very coherently. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917/28 "2012-01-19T00:20:32Z")
> [@I\_Know\_Nothing](#): > > Key word here is “formed,” the word used in Gen 2; not “created,” the word used in Gen 1. They could have been created but not yet formed. Now imagine in your mind an elephant that has been created, all parts present and accounted for, but not yet formed. Part of the trunk is in the lower intestine, an eyeball is dangling from an aorta, the nerves are just all over the place and exposed to the open breeze, and its throat is hanging off one of the feet. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917/29 "2012-01-19T00:36:03Z")
> [@](#): > > OK, I wasn’t reading closely enough. Interestingly, he creates plants before he creates the sun. How was that supposed to work? Maybe the plants were OK for a day or 2 without sunlight… Well, see, originally the light came from two great Trees, one golden and one silver. But a fallen angel and a giant spider composed of darkness came along and poisoned the Trees, killing them, so the angels took the last fruit and the last flower of the Trees and formed them into two great carriages, piloted by two angels, and those became the Sun and Moon. And the angel who pilots the Moon is in love with the angel who pilots the Sun, but she spurns him, and that’s why the Sun and Moon don’t follow the same cycle in the sky. See? It all makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917/30 "2012-01-19T00:43:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, I wasn’t reading closely enough. Interestingly, he creates plants before he creates the sun. How was that supposed to work? Maybe the plants were OK for a day or 2 without sunlight… > > Also, I don’t really want to get into all the other issues in the Bible, just this one. What do modern theologians say-- it’s not supposed to be taken literally anyway? um plants grow at night time! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917/31 "2012-01-19T01:41:24Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > um plants grow at night time! 😉 But not if there was never day! ---
**Author:** ![Secondhand\_Lion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Secondhand\_Lion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Secondhand_Lion)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917/32 "2012-01-19T02:03:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Putting this in GD because of religious content… > > It’s often said around here that there are two creation stories in Genesis and that they contradict each other. After having read them, it seems reasonable that G-1 is the big picture story, telling of the sequential events, and G-2 is focusing more on the creation of Man. Not really seeing the big contradiction… > > [Link to Genesis](http://www.bibleontheweb.com/bible.asp). > > Am I missing something? You are not missing anything that is uncommon. It can certainly appear to contradict upon initial observation; however to someone reading it from the presupposition that it is correct and the basis for all life, this is very easily explained/understood. If you are reading it with the express purpose of “proving it wrong”, no explanation will ever be good enough for you. It all depends what presuppositions (foundation) you start with. The word “Day” in the Hebrew language can refer to many different ideas. When you see it stated referring to “evening and morning” it is always referring to a literal 24 hour period. There are other instances where it can be taken literally, but for the purpose of Genesis 1&2, you should be able to see the difference already. [http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/yowm.html](http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/yowm.html) This may help clear it up a bit more than I have the ability to do. Remember back in the day when you could throw a football 60 yards on a dime? Oh? There was only one 24 hour period that you could do that? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917/33 "2012-01-19T02:09:49Z")
> [@Secondhand\_Lion](#): > > You are not missing anything that is uncommon. It can certainly appear to contradict upon initial observation; however to someone reading it from the presupposition that it is correct and the basis for all life, this is very easily explained/understood. If you are reading it with the express purpose of “proving it wrong”, no explanation will ever be good enough for you. It all depends what presuppositions (foundation) you start with. > > The word “Day” in the Hebrew language can refer to many different ideas. When you see it stated referring to “evening and morning” it is always referring to a literal 24 hour period. There are other instances where it can be taken literally, but for the purpose of Genesis 1&2, you should be able to see the difference already. > > [http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/yowm.html](http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/yowm.html) This may help clear it up a bit more than I have the ability to do. > > Remember back in the day when you could throw a football 60 yards on a dime? Oh? There was only one 24 hour period that you could do that? Do you notice that no one in this thread has said a word about what a “day” might mean? The main issue is that the sequence of events is different in the two accounts. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917/34 "2012-01-19T02:14:36Z")
> [@Secondhand\_Lion](#): > > You are not missing anything that is uncommon. It can certainly appear to contradict upon initial observation; however to someone reading it from the presupposition that it is correct and the basis for all life, this is very easily explained/understood. If you are reading it with the express purpose of “proving it wrong”, no explanation will ever be good enough for you. It all depends what presuppositions (foundation) you start with. > > The word “Day” in the Hebrew language can refer to many different ideas. When you see it stated referring to “evening and morning” it is always referring to a literal 24 hour period. There are other instances where it can be taken literally, but for the purpose of Genesis 1&2, you should be able to see the difference already. > > [http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/yowm.html](http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/yowm.html) This may help clear it up a bit more than I have the ability to do. > > Remember back in the day when you could throw a football 60 yards on a dime? Oh? There was only one 24 hour period that you could do that? So let me get this straight: There are only two ways to look at this-the correct way(there ain’t nothing wrong with the book, no how, no way), and the “I’m out to prove the Bible is wrong no matter what!” way? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917/35 "2012-01-19T02:17:25Z")
> [@Secondhand\_Lion](#): > > Remember back in the day when you could throw a football 60 yards on a dime? Oh? There was only one 24 hour period that you could do that? Does anybody in real life _ever_ say, “Oh, wow! I never looked at it that way!” when you try to pull silly word games on them like that? ---
**Author:** ![Secondhand\_Lion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Secondhand\_Lion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Secondhand_Lion)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917/36 "2012-01-19T02:20:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do you notice that no one in this thread has said a word about what a “day” might mean? The main issue is that the sequence of events is different in the two accounts. What is a sequence of events if it does not have to do with time? What is the standard for that time in this passage? How can you understand the sequence without first understanding the time/s discussed? I am sorry if I do not understand something…but seems pretty base to me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917/37 "2012-01-19T02:52:08Z")
> [@Secondhand\_Lion](#): > > What is a sequence of events if it does not have to do with time? What is the standard for that time in this passage? How can you understand the sequence without first understanding the time/s discussed? > > I am sorry if I do not understand something…but seems pretty base to me. If I say that X happens before Y, what difference does it make what a time interval is if I then tell you that Y happened before X? No fiddling with time intervals can explain that discrepancy. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917/38 "2012-01-19T03:30:27Z")
> [@Secondhand\_Lion](#): > > You are not missing anything that is uncommon. It can certainly appear to contradict upon initial observation; however to someone reading it from the presupposition that it is correct and the basis for all life, this is very easily explained/understood. If you are reading it with the express purpose of “proving it wrong”, no explanation will ever be good enough for you. It all depends what presuppositions (foundation) you start with. > > The word “Day” in the Hebrew language can refer to many different ideas. When you see it stated referring to “evening and morning” it is always referring to a literal 24 hour period. There are other instances where it can be taken literally, but for the purpose of Genesis 1&2, you should be able to see the difference already. > > [http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/yowm.html](http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/yowm.html) This may help clear it up a bit more than I have the ability to do. > > Remember back in the day when you could throw a football 60 yards on a dime? Oh? There was only one 24 hour period that you could do that? Exactly. I have often said any excuse will do if you don’t want to do it. This is why I waste very little time on political or religious questions on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917/39 "2012-01-19T03:44:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But not if there was never day! Yeah. That whole photosynthesis thing requires a sun at some point. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917/40 "2012-01-19T03:54:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’ve also heard that people think these were two separate stories that were crammed together. I can see that might be the case, but what evidence do we have for that? I assume you would need to look at the original text for clues, too. Or the oldest texts, since we don’t have the original. I hope God backed it up on His cosmic hard drive! Along with the separate names for the Deity, there is also the basic style of writing. Genesis 1, (or Genesis 1 through Genesis 2:3) is a poem in the original. It is written in a very formalized style that sets out the creation as a series of actions over three days, followed by a second series of actions that echoes the first days in the next three days: Day 1, Light; Day 4 Sun, Moon, stars; Day 2 separate the heavens from the seas, (since the vasults of the heavens restrain waters); Day 5, populate the seas with fish and the heavens with birds; Day 3, bring forth the land; Day 6, bring forth everything that lives on land. Day 7, rest. On each day, at the end God blesses it. The structure indicates that creation was an orderly process, not something that was the result of a pair of gods fighting over something else and the blessing of God shows that God intends the world to be a good place, not the afterthought of a wicked or capricious god. From Genesis 2:4 onward, a totally different prose style tells a different story in prose, explaining why God created the Earth for man and how man screwed it up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-two-genesis-stories-contradict-each-other/609917.md?page=3)