# Do these common criticisms of an eternal afterlife have merit? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2022, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806 "2022-06-25T02:14:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806/81 "2022-06-28T22:14:04Z")
Facts are facts, but “truth” is relative. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806/82 "2022-06-28T22:15:36Z")
What about truth without the scare quotes? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806/83 "2022-06-28T22:18:28Z")
What truth are we talking about? That there is an afterlife? That some deity exists? That that deity claims to have considered destroying us all for basically no reason until he got the chance to assist in the murder of some dude via crucifixion which made him feel better for some reason, at least for now? Even if I awoke in heaven and learned that a substantial percentage of the christian cosmology was true, that wouldn’t fill me with happiness. I’d probably be scared shitless, if the form I incarnated in could shit. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806/84 "2022-06-28T22:19:40Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Are you taking what @Jay_Z wrote literally, at face value? Or are you showing the kind of suspicion that would probably be natural towards someone who uses such language? > > If the actual truth really does become clear to you, how is that torture? I’m honestly confused about your first question. Do you ask me if I took Jay\_Z’s post at face value? Well yes, that’s what I was asking and wondering, if they meant it literally or if it was sarcasm. As for your second question, if the price for the “truth” would be to mindlessly, droolingly worship such a being eternally, I choose annihilation any time. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806/85 "2022-06-28T22:36:12Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > What truth are we talking about? I hesitate to speak for either @Jay_Z or @Czarcasm or the people who have told @Czarcasm that “All you will want to do is worship The Lord,” but in this context I thought the “truth” being discussed was that the Lord was worth worshipping. I took it in somewhat the same spirit as “If you go to this concert and see this band play live, you’ll want to become a fan,” or “If you meet this person for yourself, you’ll want to become their friend.” I’ve also been wondering, ever since @Czarcasm made that comment, whether it was the “worship” part or the “all” part that he objected to and considered to be brainwashing. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806/86 "2022-06-28T22:55:55Z")
In this cosmology, heaven is close to revealed divinity. E.g., Dante contemplating God: > [@](#): > > My mind in this wise wholly in suspense, > Steadfast, immovable, attentive gazed, > And evermore with gazing grew enkindled. > > In presence of that light one such becomes, > That to withdraw therefrom for other prospect > It is impossible he e’er consent; > > Because the good, which object is of will, > Is gathered all in this, and out of it > That is defective which is perfect there. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806/87 "2022-06-28T23:21:33Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > What about truth without the scare quotes? If the definition of truth being used here lines up with the definition of fact, then I have no problem with it. Does it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806/88 "2022-06-28T23:33:30Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I took it in somewhat the same spirit as “If you go to this concert and see this band play live, you’ll want to become a fan,” or “If you meet this person for yourself, you’ll want to become their friend.” I have trouble with “All you will want to do” because it indicates to me that it won’t be my decision to make. “Worship” doesn’t bother me. If you want to worship something go for it, but to say that I _will want_ to worship the same thing or, to a lesser degree, like the same band or the same person is a denial of individuality. If everyone in Heaven likes the same things and people equally, why bother having more than one person go there? If billions of people are just replicas of each other, why bother knowing anybody else? ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806/89 "2022-06-28T23:33:44Z")
If this is a Christian heaven, the entire basis of Christianity is the voluntary choosing of faith. There is no brainwashing. Adam & Eve weren’t brainwashed, they made choices out of their own free will. My point is that you will have available to you insights that are unimaginable given your earthly experience. It’s rather presumptious for us to conclude that our human brains and five senses provide us everything that it’s possible to know by a long shot. I think it likely you’d be given the opportunity to object and leave, though. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806/90 "2022-06-28T23:34:46Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > I think it likely you’d be given the opportunity to object and leave, though. But I won’t want to. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806/91 "2022-06-28T23:36:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If everyone in Heaven likes the same things and people equally, why bother having more than one person go there? Heaven could be uniquely satisfying to each individual. Imagine looking at something that’s 1000x more attractive than the most attractive person you’ve ever seen. Also, different people see it differently given their unique backgrounds and experiences. It’s heaven, it doesn’t need to be bound by earthly laws where everything must look the same to everybody. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806/92 "2022-06-28T23:38:51Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > Heaven could be uniquely satisfying to each individual. Imagine looking at something that’s 1000x more attractive than the most attractive person you’ve ever seen. Also, different people see it differently given their unique backgrounds and experiences. It’s heaven, it doesn’t need to be bound by earthly laws where everything must look the same to everybody. Which religion gives this as a description of Heaven? ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806/93 "2022-06-28T23:40:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Which religion gives this as a description of Heaven? Religions are bound by earthly laws and likely couldn’t adequately describe heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806/94 "2022-06-28T23:40:47Z")
But you can? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806/95 "2022-06-28T23:42:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I have trouble with “All you will want to do” because it indicates to me that it won’t be my decision to make. I can understand how you get that impression. It kind of makes God sound like the Hypnotoad. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806/96 "2022-06-28T23:44:30Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I can understand how you get that impression. It kind of makes God sound like the Hypnotoad. “You will have free will not to worship, but you _will_ want to worship!” is a mixed message at best. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806/97 "2022-06-28T23:44:44Z")
> [@Cmyers1980](#): > > With all of this in mind it would be absolutely trivial for God to make it so people in Heaven (or whatever you want to call it) never got bored and retained their personalities and what makes them “them” This premise raises an interesting possibility. If God is allowed to make changes to people in order that they will fit in with an eternal afterlife, this would save him a lot of work. God could just send everyone to the same afterlife. Let’s say, for example, that everyone goes to one big field which stretches out forever. How does this fit in with a scheme of eternal punishments and rewards? Simple, God judges everyone as they die and adjusts them based on whether he wishes to punish or reward them. For the people he judges as good, he adjusts them so they feel an eternity spend standing in a big field is the greatest thing ever. And for the people he judges as bad, he adjusts them so they feel an eternity spend standing in a big field is the worst torture ever conceived. Personally, I feel this suggests the premise is flawed. If God is adjusting people in the described manner, the post-adjustment people are not the same as who they were when they were alive. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806/98 "2022-06-28T23:49:34Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > Adam & Eve weren’t brainwashed, they made choices out of their own free will. Not the best example of informed free will at all. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2022, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806/99 "2022-06-29T00:05:58Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > in this context I thought the “truth” being discussed was that the Lord was worth worshipping. I took it in somewhat the same spirit as “If you go to this concert and see this band play live, you’ll want to become a fan,” or “If you meet this person for yourself, you’ll want to become their friend.” I have a long history of not liking stuff that everyone else loves. The notion of something that literally everyone will like is foreign to me - unless it’s basically a biological imperative. Everyone likes air; everyone likes hydration. We don’t have a choice. > [@Jay\_Z](#): > > If this is a Christian heaven, the entire basis of Christianity is the voluntary choosing of faith. There is no brainwashing If the claim here that everyone in heaven will be eternally devoted to God because God will send everyone who isn’t slavishly sycophantic to hell for the crime of not being slavishly sycophantic, then yep; this is one of the ways God could ensure he gets the praise and adulation he desires. Er, presuming that nobody ever, ever changes their tastes or interests, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2022, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806/100 "2022-06-29T21:11:23Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > It’s rather presumptious for us to conclude that our human brains and five senses provide us everything that it’s possible to know by a long shot. I’ve been hearing this since kindergarten, and I still say it’s spinach. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-these-common-criticisms-of-an-eternal-afterlife-have-merit/966806.md?page=6)