# Do "thing" and "sing" rhyme to you? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 13, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718 "2012-02-13T16:27:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![kittenblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ba8739/32.png) [@kittenblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kittenblue)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718/181 "2012-02-22T03:45:42Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > You might not hear the differences if you’ve grown up hearing those vowel sounds as the same - as others said above, if you don’t hear certain sounds in babyhood it’s different to learn to hear them later. Trust me, for me the vowel sounds in Mary, merry and marry are very different - I’m not pretending they are just to confuse people. > > Mary = mɜ:rɪ > Marry = mærɪ > Merry = merɪ > > Even without knowing the IPA or being able to hear the differences between the sounds, you can see that they really are different vowel sounds in my accent. Make a recording, please, and post it here. And what accent is yours, if one may ask? And for the record, my former mother-in-law’s name is Marry. She’s German. It’s pronounced identically to the name Mary and the words marry and merry. ---
**Author:** ![Michael63129](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3da27b/32.png) [@Michael63129](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael63129)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718/182 "2012-02-22T04:01:18Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > My upbringing was initially St. Louis, too, and the OP’s both examples rhyme jes’ fine wit me. Is that Missour-uh or Missour-ee? Same here (also from St. Louis, although not in the city, if that makes a difference), and I pronounce Missouri the second way. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718/183 "2012-02-22T04:18:14Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Mary = mɜ:rɪ > Marry = mærɪ > Merry = merɪ Usually I see it transcribed this way – Mary = meɪri Marry = mæri Merry = mɛri The end vowel might just be the difference between General American and Received Pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718/184 "2012-02-22T05:21:54Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Usually I see it transcribed this way – > > Mary = meɪri > Marry = mæri > Merry = mɛri > > The end vowel might just be the difference between General American and Received Pronunciation. The end vowel is the same, but you’re not using IPA for that, just typing in a letter i. It’s the middle vowels that are different, which isn’t surprising, since we have different accents. @kittenblue: my accent is Britsh RP. I might record something at some point when I have a microphone to hand. But I assure you I do actually say those words differently. Was there ever a thread on here where people posted recordings of themselves? I’ve seen it done on another board, with a list of words which were written for that purpose (by some linguist or other), some of which tend to have the same or very similar pronunciations across multiple English dialects and some of which are known to vary widely. If we did it here we should definitely add Mary, marry, merry, thing, sing, get and wet, if they’re not on there already. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718/185 "2012-02-22T06:00:04Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > The end vowel is the same, but you’re not using IPA for that, just typing in a letter i. I’m confused. /i/ _is_ IPA, for a long “ee” type of sound. /ɪ/ corresponds to a short “i.” For example, “pip” is /pɪp/ and “peep” is /pip/ in IPA. (Actually, /pi:p/ would be better.) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718/186 "2012-02-22T09:02:16Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Actually, [here’s me saying](http://www.pawinskiphotography.com/public/rang.mp3) “I rang the bell; I reng the bell; I ring the bell; I reeng the bell” at what is my normal speaking pace. > > It seems to me that at times my /ɪ/ might shade a little towards /i/, but it definitely does not feel as “closed” in my throat as a pure /i/. See, to my ear, it sounds like the last two are both “reeng”, just that the seconds is absurdly close, almost to the level of a /j/. I also note that, while I can tell your “ring” is not as close, it still sounds like /i/. To me, the characteristic sound of /i/ is not how close it is, anyways. It is how far front it is. While /ɪ/ is usually more open, it’s defining trait is that it is a mid-front vowel, and lacks that “ping”. I can say /ɪ/ and /i/ only changing the position of my tongue, and not my jaw. Finally, I offer my hypothesis that the vowel used by most people in saying -ing words really isn’t /ɪ/ or /i/. but something in between. Hence why some people hear it as one vowel and others another. In actuality, there is no phonemic difference. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718/187 "2012-02-22T09:12:33Z")
Y’all might want to hold off on correcting **CanvasShoes’** error, until we find out if, just maybe, he/she really meant to say that Alaska, being recently and thinly settled by English speakers from many places, has no regional English accent _of its own_ (yet) – i.e., one that is distinctly “Alaskan”. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718/188 "2012-02-22T12:45:54Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > The end vowel is the same, but you’re not using IPA for that, just typing in a letter i. I can assure you that I’m using IPA for that. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718/189 "2012-02-22T15:21:13Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Y’all might want to hold off on correcting **CanvasShoes’** error, until we find out if, just maybe, he/she really meant to say that Alaska, being recently and thinly settled by English speakers from many places, has no regional English accent _of its own_ (yet) – i.e., one that is distinctly “Alaskan”. Two words: Sarah Palin. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718/190 "2012-02-22T15:47:35Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Finally, I offer my hypothesis that the vowel used by most people in saying -ing words really isn’t /ɪ/ or /i/. but something in between. I suspect that may be the case. I don’t find it difficult to understand how some people hear it as an /i/. I personally think it’s closer to /ɪ/ in most cases, but when I do say something like “We three kings,” the “king” sounds a bit closer to /i/, although not quite an /i/ in my accent. From what I can tell, it seems to me that the nasalization of the “ng” either changes the vowel or our perception of it. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718/191 "2012-02-22T17:03:16Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I’m confused. /i/ _is_ IPA, for a long “ee” type of sound. /ɪ/ corresponds to a short “i.” For example, “pip” is /pɪp/ and “peep” is /pip/ in IPA. (Actually, /pi:p/ would be better.) > [@Acsenray](#): > > I can assure you that I’m using IPA for that. OK. It doesn’t look like the IPA i to me, because the dot on that is usually more square, but it doesn’t matter. I didn’t know any dialects had a long i sound at the end of Mary, marry and merry - British RP definitely doesn’t. So that’s another difference as well as the middle vowel sounds. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718/192 "2012-02-22T18:56:29Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > OK. It doesn’t look like the IPA i to me, because the dot on that is usually more square, but it doesn’t matter. IPA defines a set of symbols. It doesn’t require you to use a specific typeface. > [@](#): > > I didn’t know any dialects had a long i sound at the end of Mary, marry and merry - British RP definitely doesn’t. So that’s another difference as well as the middle vowel sounds. Yes, in fact that to me is one of the noticeable characteristics of RP, the [ɪ] at the end of words instead of \*. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718/193 "2012-02-22T21:50:55Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > IPA defines a set of symbols. It doesn’t require you to use a specific typeface. > > Yes, in fact that to me is one of the noticeable characteristics of RP, the [ɪ] at the end of words instead of \*. Yes, but in all the symbols I see, the i is not just a regular i. No matter. I’ve never actually heard an American say i instead of ɪ unless they’re intentionally elongating the last syllable, but perhaps I just haven’t noticed it (obviously it is a sound my dialect has, so I’m not deaf to it). I’ll listen for it next time I watch an American TV show. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718/194 "2012-02-22T22:07:32Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Yes, but in all the symbols I see, the i is not just a regular i. No matter. > > I’ve never actually heard an American say i instead of ɪ unless they’re intentionally elongating the last syllable, but perhaps I just haven’t noticed it (obviously it is a sound my dialect has, so I’m not deaf to it). I’ll listen for it next time I watch an American TV show. Here’s an example of “merry” pronounced [in the American way.](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/merry) And the page with the [definition and pronunciation](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/merry). (No IPA, but marks the last syllable as a long “e.”) I do note that [Collins](http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/merry) shows the /ɪ/ pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718/195 "2012-02-22T22:52:52Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Here’s an example of “merry” pronounced [in the American way.](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/merry) And the page with the [definition and pronunciation](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/merry). (No IPA, but marks the last syllable as a long “e.”) > > I do note that [Collins](http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/merry) shows the /ɪ/ pronunciation. Huh, I suppose that is a i (can’t be bothered to get the right symbol) rather than a ɪ. Though I still think it’s the middle vowels in Mary/marry/merry which really mark out Mid-West American and British RP rather than the end vowel. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718/196 "2012-02-22T23:05:45Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Huh, I suppose that is a i (can’t be bothered to get the right symbol) rather than a ɪ. I really do think the regular “i” is okay. Whether the dot is square or round doesn’t make a difference so far as I can tell, and seems to be more a function of the typeface. Look up the IPA charts, and you’ll find official ones like [these (WARNING: PDF)](http://www.langsci.ucl.ac.uk/ipa/IPA_chart_(C)2005.pdf) that have the “i” with a rounded dot. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718/197 "2012-02-22T23:26:45Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Here’s an example of “merry” pronounced [in the American way.](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/merry) And the page with the [definition and pronunciation](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/merry). (No IPA, but marks the last syllable as a long “e.”) You just linked to the same thing twice. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718/198 "2012-02-23T00:12:15Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You just linked to the same thing twice. Oh, I thought the first would link to the audio file, but apparently it doesn’t. Click on the speaker icon to hear it. ETA: Or, wait, try [this](http://www.merriam-webster.com/audio.php?file=merry001&word=merry&text=%5C%3Cspan%20class%3D%22unicode%22%3E%CB%88%3C%2Fspan%3Emer-%C4%93%2C%20%3Cspan%20class%3D%22unicode%22%3E%CB%88%3C%2Fspan%3Eme-r%C4%93%5C) for the audio. ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718/199 "2012-02-23T00:30:07Z")
“Be merry, Mack.” “I’ll marry Mack.” “It’s Mary Mack!” “It’s the Merrimac!” Yup. Same sound in all of 'em. Maybe a leeetle difference between merry and Mary/marry, but not enough that I could tell which one you meant with no context. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718/200 "2012-02-23T07:18:01Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > “Be merry, Mack.” > “I’ll marry Mack.” > “It’s Mary Mack!” > “It’s the Merrimac!” > > Yup. Same sound in all of 'em. Maybe a leeetle difference between merry and Mary/marry, but not enough that I could tell which one you meant with no context. They are completely different for me. Where I live no one would ever confuse one of those three words for another. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-thing-and-sing-rhyme-to-you/612718.md?page=11)