# Do Toyota Priuses CAUSE more pollution? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 2, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629 "2011-11-02T15:08:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629/41 "2011-11-02T21:38:49Z")
> [@tanstaafl](#): > > I suspect they are talking about [hypermiling](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypermiling). Some Prius owners drive in such a way to maximize their fuel economy, even though this may conflict with the rest of the traffic flow. Even then, why would that cause other people to use more gas? If you’re stuck behind a hypermiler and forced to match his speed, you should use **less** gas, not more. (Unless you’re tailgating and accelerating/braking constantly to maintain a precise distance.) ---
**Author:** ![tanstaafl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba8739/32.png) [@tanstaafl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tanstaafl)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629/42 "2011-11-03T00:12:08Z")
I was responding directly to this quote from the OP > [@](#): > > a Prius in congested traffic will cause more emissions indirectly by slowing cars down than it will emit directly I was talking about the slowing down part. Now this assumes that slowing traffic down increases emissions. Obviously in the extreme case of stopping completely emissions would increase relative to moving traffic, but I don’t know if causing non-hybrid cars to drive at a slower rate would cause this. Presumably there is some point where lower emissions over a longer period of time is greater than higher emissions over a shorter period of time, but I have no idea what that tradeoff is. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629/43 "2011-11-03T00:32:06Z")
> [@tanstaafl](#): > > I was responding directly to this quote from the OP > > I was talking about the slowing down part. Now this assumes that slowing traffic down increases emissions. Obviously in the extreme case of stopping completely emissions would increase relative to moving traffic, but I don’t know if causing non-hybrid cars to drive at a slower rate would cause this. Presumably there is some point where lower emissions over a longer period of time is greater than higher emissions over a shorter period of time, but I have no idea what that tradeoff is. _Supposing that this is true_, the problem isn’t so much the presence of the hybrids as it is the presence of the pure internal combustion vehicles. As a higher and higher percentage of cars become hybrids, or even pure electrics, this will become less and less of a problem. This is just an unavoidable transition period and we’ll come out ahead in the end. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629/44 "2011-11-03T00:54:56Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > The only way that would work is if you slowly accelerate and maintain constant speed on a perfectly level road. That would mean no regenerative breaking and any energy diverted to charge the battery would be wasted. > > In the real world, if you drive correctly, the battery stores energy that would normally be lost to braking (stopping at lights or in traffic and going down hill) and uses that energy when needed (accelerating, uphill). I got my best MPG in my Prius (averaged at around 53mpg) when I commuted from [San Mateo to Livermore, CA](http://g.co/maps/eaf8d). That involved going over a not insignificant mountain. If I kept my speed below 50 on the way up, I would crest with less than 25% of my battery charge, and then coast all the way down and end up with a full charge. Winner winner chicken dinner. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629/45 "2011-11-03T01:23:59Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Even then, why would that cause other people to use more gas? If you’re stuck behind a hypermiler and forced to match his speed, you should use **less** gas, not more. (Unless you’re tailgating and accelerating/braking constantly to maintain a precise distance.) Who sticks around behind a hypermiler or a Sunday driver? Personally, I usually end up having to use my brakes a little to match his speed, then I have to accelerate to pass him and get back up to speed. If you have thirty or forty people doing this every hour (and in dense traffic, you probably have many more than that), it’s conceivable that the hypermiler makes everyone else’s driving more inefficient and so counteracts the hypermiler’s savings. I haven’t run the numbers, but I can understand the argument. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629/46 "2011-11-03T02:49:44Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > According to EPA’s **combined** (highway+city) fuel economy rating, the Prius is 50% more efficient than the Fiesta (50 mpg vs. 33 mpg). The savings in gas adds up to 1000 gallons after 100,000 miles of driving. I just checked the MSRP on a PRIUS versus the Fiesta and it is about 10,000 dollars. After tax that is about 3,000 gallons of gasoline [http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/prius/2011/?mktcat=prius-price&kw=prius+price&mktid=ga18568299&gclid=CJGL\_MGymawCFYtR7AodnxlOIQ](http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/prius/2011/?mktcat=prius-price&kw=prius+price&mktid=ga18568299&gclid=CJGL_MGymawCFYtR7AodnxlOIQ) [http://www.edmunds.com/ford/fiesta/2012/?sub=sedan](http://www.edmunds.com/ford/fiesta/2012/?sub=sedan) Also the battery pack is warranted for 100,000 miles or 150,0000 miles so you might be looking at a replacement cost of 10,000 for the battery pack. You might want to split the difference and get a Honda Insight, which 5,000 cheaper than a Prius and averages over 40MPG. [http://www.edmunds.com/honda/insight/2012/options.html?sub=hatchback&style=101413159&trim=base](http://www.edmunds.com/honda/insight/2012/options.html?sub=hatchback&style=101413159&trim=base) ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629/47 "2011-11-03T03:15:15Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The only way I could lead credence to this is if making the electricity to power the battery causes more pollution than does a gas engine. But for the reasons stated in the OP? I don’t see it. Well, another possibility could be that that used-up batteries of the type in these cars (Li-ion?) may be difficult to dispose of safely, but I’m not sure what’s involved and how much pollution that mkight cause. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629/48 "2011-11-03T03:28:10Z")
I found a little more of the quote [here](http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/06/sentence-of-the-day-3.html) > [@](#): > > …whatever some Prius fans may believe, it turns out that Priuses do have a corporeal form, and a Prius in congested traffic will cause more emissions indirectly by slowing other cars down than it will emit directly. Is the argument supposed to be that Prius owners think they magically breeze through life with no footprint, when in fact they still contributes to traffic and pollution? ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629/49 "2011-11-03T03:56:57Z")
That’s why I mentioned that the author might be comparing having a Prius to having no car at all. While there’s a point there, it doesn’t address the idea that it’s better to have a car with fewer carbon emissions than one with greater carbon emissions. The author’s point then seems to hinge on unrealistic impressions of people having no impact when they just have a lesser impact. Do people actually have that unrealistic impression or not? ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629/50 "2011-11-03T04:28:23Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Probably not what the author was referring to, but I notice that many Prius drivers are very slow accelerators. I suspect that it’s not that the car can’t accelerate more quickly, but that the drivers are striving to keep the car’s performance in the “happy zone”. You didn’t know my father. He was an early Prius adopter, and he drove his like a bat out of hell until a week before he died at 87. That thing could really zip when he wanted it do, which he always did. Roddy ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629/51 "2011-11-03T05:02:41Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > The author’s point then seems to hinge on unrealistic impressions of people having no impact when they just have a lesser impact. Do people actually have that unrealistic impression or not? Well, this is the sentence before the Prius mention in the OP article. > [@](#): > > Those who embrace the theory of global warming are seemingly always turning off lights and other appliances, but the cappuccinos they drink (think milk) while congratulating themselves for their forward-thinking ways are responsible for far more carbon emissions than result from plugging in a mobile phone, or turning on a kettle. In his defense, that doesn’t appear to be a quote from Hartford’s book, and may not be related to anything in his book at all. But first, a kettle is roughly the same thing as a cappuccino machine and a quick google shows they use the same power and a cell phone uses extremely little. So a cappuccino requiring more energy than these is no point at all. Second, other appliances can use a **ton** of energy and turning them off can really make a difference. Surely they don’t really expect people to have zero impact, but if you want to make “Those who embrace the theory of global warming” look like hypocrites and can twist a point that much in an article for like-minded people, then why not print it, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629/52 "2011-11-03T06:19:55Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > Well, this is the sentence before the Prius mention in the OP article. > > In his defense, that doesn’t appear to be a quote from Hartford’s book, and may not be related to anything in his book at all. But first, a kettle is roughly the same thing as a cappuccino machine and a quick google shows they use the same power and a cell phone uses extremely little. So a cappuccino requiring more energy than these is no point at all. Second, other appliances can use a **ton** of energy and turning them off can really make a difference. Surely they don’t really expect people to have zero impact, but if you want to make “Those who embrace the theory of global warming” look like hypocrites and can twist a point that much in an article for like-minded people, then why not print it, I guess. I dunno about the book, but the article about it is absolutely full of bullshit assumptions and logical fails. ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629/53 "2011-11-03T14:40:05Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > But first, a kettle is roughly the same thing as a cappuccino machine and a quick google shows they use the same power and a cell phone uses extremely little. I think you missed his point about the cappuccino. I’m going to use a latte because a latte makes it more clear. Say your latte has 12 ounces of milk in it. According to [this](http://www.usdairy.com/Sustainability/GHGReduction/Science/Pages/LifeCycleAssessment.aspx), that will be 1.7 lbs of CO2 equivalent carbon footprint for the milk alone. The carbon footprint of electricity to run the kettle or the espresso machine itself is **dwarfed** by this number. Based on the numbers I could find, 12 ounces of milk has roughly the same carbon footprint as electric boiling of 5 gallons of water from room temperature. That’s not even considering things like the coffee beans themselves. That cell phone charger that’s not plugged in? That’s such a tiny amount of power that I wouldn’t be surprised if we already left a higher carbon footprint discussing its carbon footprint than one it would’ve left if it was left plugged in for the rest of its life. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629/54 "2011-11-03T14:56:28Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I just checked the MSRP on a PRIUS versus the Fiesta and it is about 10,000 dollars. After tax that is about 3,000 gallons of gasoline > > [http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/prius/2011/?mktcat=prius-price&kw=prius+price&mktid=ga18568299&gclid=CJGL\_MGymawCFYtR7AodnxlOIQ](http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/prius/2011/?mktcat=prius-price&kw=prius+price&mktid=ga18568299&gclid=CJGL_MGymawCFYtR7AodnxlOIQ) > > [http://www.edmunds.com/ford/fiesta/2012/?sub=sedan](http://www.edmunds.com/ford/fiesta/2012/?sub=sedan) > > Also the battery pack is warranted for 100,000 miles or 150,0000 miles so you might be looking at a replacement cost of 10,000 for the battery pack. > > You might want to split the difference and get a Honda Insight, which 5,000 cheaper than a Prius and averages over 40MPG. > > [http://www.edmunds.com/honda/insight/2012/options.html?sub=hatchback&style=101413159&trim=base](http://www.edmunds.com/honda/insight/2012/options.html?sub=hatchback&style=101413159&trim=base) I have never understood this line of reasoning. You seem to assume that buying a Prius is a bad idea if you can buy a different car and pay less total. If all you want is the maximum miles driven for the least amount of money, you are better off getting a used sub-compact. But that is not the what most people buying a new Prius are looking at. When I bought my Prius, I compared it to cars of similar size and feature, such as a Honda Civic. The best cost comparison would have been a Civic to a Civic hybrid, but they did not have the type of hybrid I wanted at the time. Anyway, the Prius had better features, more space, and after my tax break only cost about $3000 more than the Civic. Also, hybrids may have a costly battery change required at some point (FTR my battery is fine at 101K), but they have a lower overall maintenance cost. I am still on my original breaks, I only need to change the oil every 5000 miles, and I just had my first engine repair (failed coolant recir valve). When I bought the car, Consume Reports rated it the lowest total cost of ownership vehicle on the road. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629/55 "2011-11-03T15:40:36Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I just checked the MSRP on a PRIUS versus the Fiesta and it is about 10,000 dollars. After tax that is about 3,000 gallons of gasoline I was responding to a discussion about your claim that “the Prius uses the energy equivalent of 1000 gallons of gasoline before it ever gets to the road.” I thought you were saying that if you compare a Prius to a Fiesta, it would never make up for that 1000 gallons. As I showed, a Prius does indeed break even after 100,000 miles. Somewhere along the line you switched from discussing carbon footprint to discussing total cost of ownership. But in that analysis you have ignored resale value of the car. Right now hybrid cars tend to depreciate less than conventional cars. When gas price goes up, the resale value of hybrid cars should go up even more (compared to non-hybrid cars of similar age). ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629/56 "2011-11-03T21:52:27Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > I have never understood this line of reasoning. You seem to assume that buying a Prius is a bad idea if you can buy a different car and pay less total. If all you want is the maximum miles driven for the least amount of money, you are better off getting a used sub-compact. > . Actually a used subcompact is environmentally better also, since you aren’t using the resources required to build a new car, but you don’t get much status from driving around a 10 year old Hyundai. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629/57 "2011-11-03T22:04:15Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Actually a used subcompact is environmentally better also, since you aren’t using the resources required to build a new car, but you don’t get much status from driving around a 10 year old Hyundai. But you could argue that if you can afford a new Prius, it’s better for the world if you buy that Prius and make that 10-year old Hyundai available for someone else. If you buy that Hyundai, that someone else may have to settle for a 15-year old Caprice Classic instead. Another way to put it is, by buying a new fuel-efficient car, you are improving the average fuel economy of new cars being manufactured. If all environmentally-conscious (or fuel-price conscious) people bought used cars, there won’t be any efficient used cars available 5 years from now. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629/58 "2011-11-03T22:19:39Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > I was responding to a discussion about your claim that “the Prius uses the energy equivalent of 1000 gallons of gasoline before it ever gets to the road.” I thought you were saying that if you compare a Prius to a Fiesta, it would never make up for that 1000 gallons. As I showed, a Prius does indeed break even after 100,000 miles. > > Somewhere along the line you switched from discussing carbon footprint to discussing total cost of ownership. But in that analysis you have ignored resale value of the car. Right now hybrid cars tend to depreciate less than conventional cars. When gas price goes up, the resale value of hybrid cars should go up even more (compared to non-hybrid cars of similar age). I checked and the oldest Prius is 2004 and a 2004 Corolla has a resale value of around $3,000 less. I wonder what the difference we be once the warranty on the battery pack expires, since replacing it is $10,000 and the resale on a 2004 Prius is already less than that. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629/59 "2011-11-03T22:28:07Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I checked and the oldest Prius is 2004 and a 2004 Corolla has a resale value of around $3,000 less. I wonder what the difference we be once the warranty on the battery pack expires, since replacing it is $10,000 and the resale on a 2004 Prius is already less than that. Where did you get that $10,000 number? It says [here](http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2008/10/prius-battery.html) the replacement battery for a 2004 Prius costs $2299. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629/60 "2011-11-03T23:48:37Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > Also, hybrids may have a costly battery change required at some point (FTR my battery is fine at 101K), but they have a lower overall maintenance cost. I am still on my original breaks, I only need to change the oil every 5000 miles, and I just had my first engine repair (failed coolant recir valve). When I bought the car, Consume Reports rated it the lowest total cost of ownership vehicle on the road. Actually Edmunds estimates the total cost of ownership over a five year period is $8,000 less on Corolla than a Prius. [http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/prius/2011/tco.html?style=101363295](http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/prius/2011/tco.html?style=101363295) [http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/corolla/2011/tco.html?style=101372440](http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/corolla/2011/tco.html?style=101372440) If I was still living in my old house, which had Natural Gas, then the Natural Gas Civic would be tempting. Will the local Honda dealer actually repair them? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-toyota-priuses-cause-more-pollution/601629.md?page=4)