# Do traffic laws apply in parking lots? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 8, 2004, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-traffic-laws-apply-in-parking-lots/223459 "2004-01-08T17:46:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-traffic-laws-apply-in-parking-lots/223459/21 "2004-01-09T21:06:17Z")
My apologies. Duly noted. Won’t happen again. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-traffic-laws-apply-in-parking-lots/223459/22 "2004-01-09T21:35:48Z")
Wisconsin Statutes: > [@](#): > > **346.61 Applicability of sections relating to reckless and drunken driving.** \_In addition to being applicable upon highways, ss. 346.62 to 346.64 are applicable upon all premises held out to the public for use of their motor vehicles, all premises provided by employers to employees for the use of their motor vehicles and all premises provided to tenants of rental housing in buildings of 4 or more units for the use of their motor vehicles, whether such premises are publicly or privately owned and whether or not a fee is charged for the use thereof.\_Sections 346.62 to 346.64 do not apply to private parking areas at farms or single-family residences. > > **346.61 - ANNOT.** > A privately owned parking lot was not included under this section.\_City of Kenosha v. Phillips, 142 Wis. 2d 549, 419 N.W.2d 236 (1988). ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-traffic-laws-apply-in-parking-lots/223459/23 "2004-01-09T21:38:18Z")
I should have added that even if state laws do not apply to private parking lots, municipal laws may be in effect. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-traffic-laws-apply-in-parking-lots/223459/24 "2004-01-09T21:40:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 5cents \* > **As others wrote, it depends on the jurisdiction. However, most states also have laws and regulations on what constitutes a stop/speed limit/yield/etc sign, and how it must be placed. I’ve seen plenty of shopping malls with signs that obviously don’t meet the state’s regulations. Things like stop signs that are too low, or speed limits below the minimum allowed by the state, etc.** If the property is located in a municipality, the municipality’s road rules govern. The state has jurisdiction only over state roads. prisoner6655321: [quote} Hey! How about this? Is it legal to cut through private property (like a gas station) to avoid a light? [/quote] Many states have laws against driving through private property to evade a traffic sign or signal. I’m not going to bother looking up any laws again since this was discussed in a prior thread. ---
**Author:** ![akrako1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@akrako1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akrako1)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-traffic-laws-apply-in-parking-lots/223459/25 "2004-01-09T22:32:10Z")
I lived in a gated community outside Chicago. While it is private property, and the signs are different than regular signs, the association made an agreement with the cops to patrol the area, and enforce traffic laws. I first found out when I got pulled for driving 32 in a 15. My point is that you never know. The private property owner might have made an agreement with the cops, so I would exercise some caution. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-traffic-laws-apply-in-parking-lots/223459/26 "2004-01-10T01:02:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by barbitu8 \* > **If the property is located in a municipality, the municipality’s road rules govern. The state has jurisdiction only over state roads.** Speak for your own state. In many states, state laws apply everywhere, including within municipalities. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-traffic-laws-apply-in-parking-lots/223459/27 "2004-01-10T02:48:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TartPops \* > > C) You are a colossal idiot who deserves to have their driving privileges permanently revoked. We don’t allow personal attacks in GQ. If you’d like to remain a guest of this message board, you will not do this again. **DrMatrix** - GQ Moderator ---
**Author:** ![occ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8c91f0/32.png) [@occ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/occ)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-traffic-laws-apply-in-parking-lots/223459/28 "2004-01-10T20:52:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mangeorge \* > \*\*I got a ticket (in Bakersfield, CA) back in '69 or so for cutting through a gas station lot. I, too, thought it couldn’t be illegal, but the judge just chuckled and informed me of the fine. > To add insult to injury, the light changed while I was making my brilliant move, and all those drivers who I was trying to outmaneuver got _ahead_ of me. Also, the cop tagged me in the driveway and everybody got to enjoy my humiliation. > Oh, yeah. My GF (soon to be wife) was with me. My comment to her as I began my brilliant move? “I ain’t waiting for these suckers, babe,” > I was sooo cool. 🆒 \*\* There was a thread on this awhile back. In many jurisdictions, there’s actually a law on the books worded something like “Circumventing a traffic control device”, to keep people from cutting through gas stations and such to skip lights. It’d be interesting to challenge this in court, though; how can they prove you didn’t intend to use the station, then changed your mind? ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-traffic-laws-apply-in-parking-lots/223459/29 "2004-01-10T21:08:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Walloon \* > \*\*Speak for your own state. In many states, state laws apply everywhere, including within municipalities. \*\* State laws apply even within municipalities, but if it is a city street, the city can regulate it by its own ordinance. There are state routes in municipalities, and in those instances the municipality cannot regulate it. For example, a city cannot lower the speed limit on a state route even if it is in the city without the state’s approval. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-traffic-laws-apply-in-parking-lots/223459/30 "2004-03-18T14:26:28Z")
I was helping a friend out with a traffic ticket and stumbled upon this: > [@](#): > > R 28.1136b Rule 136b. Traffic-control devices on private property; violation as civil infraction. > (1) With the consent, or at the request, of the owners or persons in charge of private property that is open > to the general public for travel, the traffic engineer may determine controls of the movement of vehicles > and pedestrians and the parking of vehicles as needed for the safety and convenience of the public and > users of the property. The traffic engineer shall place and maintain whatever traffic-control devices are > necessary to give notice of the controls determined to be necessary. > (2) A person who violates the directions of the traffic-control devices is responsible for a civil infraction. Part of Michigan’s [Uniform Traffic Code](http://www.michigan.gov/documents/UTC_50201_7.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-traffic-laws-apply-in-parking-lots/223459/31 "2004-03-18T16:57:06Z")
Interesting bit, that Uniform Traffic Code, which, as it turns out, is in actuality a set of administrative rules promulgated by the Director of the Department of State Police, which municipalities can adopt to supplement the Michigan Vehicle Code. I’m guessing that most municipalities do end up adopting the rules as ordinances. If so, Michigan’s traffic law may well be essentially uniform in all aspects state-wide. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2004, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-traffic-laws-apply-in-parking-lots/223459/32 "2004-03-18T17:05:40Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Interesting bit, that Uniform Traffic Code, which, as it turns out, is in actuality a set of administrative rules promulgated by the Director of the Department of State Police, which municipalities can adopt to supplement the Michigan Vehicle Code. I’m guessing that most municipalities do end up adopting the rules as ordinances. If so, Michigan’s traffic law may well be essentially uniform in all aspects state-wide. Probably mostly. But I bet there are a couple of “independents.” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2004, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-traffic-laws-apply-in-parking-lots/223459/33 "2004-03-18T17:36:00Z")
I used to be a career municipal employee. While I was never a traffic engineer, a few things seeped in through osmosis. > [@prisoner6655321](#): > > The thing is that legal decisions about what speed limits to use and where to put stop signs aren’t just random. They do studies. There are facts behind the 45mph on an access road and 20mph in a school zone. The signs in these parking lots don’t have any scientific or statistical basis in reality. They are just arbitrarily placed where “some guy” thinks they belong. I don’t know who that “some guy” is, but I know for damn sure it’s not a traffic engineer. There are professional traffic engineers. They do studies. Those are about the only facts behind this rant. I know of no large governmental units (catchall phrase to cover states, counties, cities, towns, townships, what-have-you) that have the money to study each and every street in their jurisdictions. That’s why there is always a default maximum speed. Changes in speed limits along a street are subject to formal study. But the speed that results isn’t always, let us say, scientific. A huge amount of political maneuvering, compromise, and pressure goes into them. (This is especially true on side streets, where an activist neighborhood organization can force speed reductions, as well as speed bumps, speed humps, relining of lanes, or a host of other measures that exactly comparable streets elsewhere don’t get.) And it’s certainly not true that private sites don’t use traffic engineers. Remember, private developers are the people with money. Every large engineering firm of my acquaintance that works on these big projects does traffic studies. > [@](#): > > Those signs ARE posted just for show. In many jurisdictions they don’t have the law behind them. A little contradiction there. As other posters have shown, signs are not always posted just for show because they do have the law behind them. Given what I’ve learned about malls and similar large private areas, I would make the default assumption everywhere I went that the signs can be backed up with authority one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2004, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-traffic-laws-apply-in-parking-lots/223459/34 "2004-03-18T17:54:50Z")
I am in western Pennsylvania. This winter, during a snowstorm, I was out cruising in my Jeep Wrangler. I decided to play around in an empty (due to the storm) parking lot. I did everything but roll the thing, and learned a bit about the way my 4 WD handled in skids/etc. Well, along came a cop. He explained that I was in violation of the law. He explained how reckless driving in PA applied to private parking lots. I thgought I was gonna get a ticket. Then we started chatting about the way the vehicle handled. He had been considering purchasing a Jeep Wrangler. I managed to convince him to “take a test drive” in my Jeep. He tried a few things, thanked me, then went on his way. No ticket. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Omar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f0a364/32.png) [@Omar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-traffic-laws-apply-in-parking-lots/223459/35 "2004-03-19T06:33:00Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Mall owners can contract with the pd to provide traffic and parking enforcement in their parking lots. > I remember seeing that in another thread here. I checked it out and found it to be true. At least here in CA. > Peace, > mangeorge I asked a local PD officer in my city (San Diego, CA), and he gave me the same answer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-traffic-laws-apply-in-parking-lots/223459.md?page=1)