# Do trans girl athletes have an advantage? \[Moderated title for clarity\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2021, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447 "2021-07-01T17:36:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/183 "2021-07-04T18:05:09Z")
> [@HughGoply](#): > > This plan will exclude trans girls from girls sports. Only if they have an unfair advantage. Probably those who started puberty blockers at a young age would be able to compete fairly. It would also likely exclude some women with intersex conditions. > [@HughGoply](#): > > This plan has the effect (and intent?) of telling trans girls that they are not girls. I don’t agree. We are able to say that an adoptive or step-parent is not the biological parent of their child without implying they are not parents at all. Sometimes biology is important, and sports is one of those times. Like @RickJay said, it would be better to rename the categories and make it really clear they are about biology and not gender. Running races against men doesn’t make someone not a woman, and vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/184 "2021-07-04T18:07:54Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Because females are half the population and deserve a fair chance. Trans females are part of that 50%. Or do you believe trans girls aren’t real girls? ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/185 "2021-07-04T18:09:37Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s far from a dodge. But in Stifled Debates you can only say so much at the best of times so in a thread that has been modded to stay on topic and to interpret that topic very narrowly I feel that going down the definitional rabbit hole in these crazy times is off topic. Are trans girls who participate in girls school sports just as much girls as cis girls who participate in girls school sports? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/186 "2021-07-04T18:11:01Z")
> [@HughGoply](#): > > Trans females are part of that 50%. Or do you believe trans girls aren’t real girls? What does “female” mean to you? I used that term quite deliberately; I mean FEMALES, which is a biological designation, not a vague gender term. People whose physiology develops along the line towards the production of large gametes and the bearing of young. They’re half the population and specifically the half that the other half has oppressed since before the dawn of recorded history. If you don’t care about them, just admit it, but they deserve an opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/187 "2021-07-04T18:11:43Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Only if they have an unfair advantage. Probably those who started puberty blockers at a young age would be able to compete fairly. It would also likely exclude some women with intersex conditions. It’s never an “unfair advantage.” Trans student athletes are no more responsible for their biology than any other athlete. ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/188 "2021-07-04T18:23:06Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > If you don’t care about them, just admit it, but they deserve an opportunity. They have opportunities. How cis girls participate in girls school sports? Millions at just the high-school level. How many trans girls particulate in school sports? 500? God forbid 1,000. Trans girls care not excluding cis girls from school sports. [https://www.nfhs.org/articles/high-school-sports-participation-increases-for-29th-consecutive-year/](https://www.nfhs.org/articles/high-school-sports-participation-increases-for-29th-consecutive-year/) ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/189 "2021-07-04T18:26:22Z")
I want all girls in school to have an opportunity to compete. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/190 "2021-07-04T18:30:43Z")
> [@HughGoply](#): > > How cis girls participate in girls school sports? You’re the one suggesting eliminating sex segregation in sports. ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/191 "2021-07-04T18:33:36Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You’re the one suggesting eliminating sex segregation in sports Only as a way to avoid the flat-out evil of excluding trans girls while v letting others participate. And under that plan, everyone would be equal as effort would be key. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/192 "2021-07-04T18:36:28Z")
> [@HughGoply](#): > > And under that plan, everyone would be equal as effort would be key. - How do you measure effort? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/193 "2021-07-04T18:38:26Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > How do you measure effort? Now don’t start that again!: > [@HughGoply](#): > > To measure, we could look at time progression. Measurements of lactic acid, heart rate, and other objective measures. Perceived effort on the subjective side. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/194 "2021-07-04T18:39:41Z")
Schools and youth sports leagues always have lactic acid measurement gear on hand. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/195 "2021-07-04T18:43:28Z")
If a kid doesn’t know their VO2 max and FTP then we are failing him/her. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/196 "2021-07-04T19:12:39Z")
> [@HughGoply](#): > > Are trans girls who participate in girls school sports just as much girls as cis girls who participate in girls school sports? There is absolutely no possible progress in discussions until you are willing to engage in defining what “female” means to you. As the thread is all about men transitioning to women and what, if any, advantages remain. If you do not accept that there is any biological difference between males and females (not “girls” and “boys” or “men” and “women”) then the conversation becomes meaningless. So, what is your definitition of “female” ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/197 "2021-07-04T19:28:48Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > n males a typical estrogen level for a healthy adult male is around 10-40 pg/ml (pictograms per milliliter.) Funny typo. ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/198 "2021-07-04T19:33:39Z")
A human female is any person who non-fraudulently (meaning they believe it) identifies as female. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/199 "2021-07-04T19:45:09Z")
That is circular. It means nothing. Are there any physiological differences between males and females? ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/200 "2021-07-04T19:47:50Z")
To have these discussions, we have to acknowledge that words have multiple meanings. Female has several definitions, among which are: - of, relating to, or being the sex that typically has the capacity to bear young or produce eggs - having a gender that is the opposite of male Both of these (and others) are definitions of “female”. Most people can infer the specific definition that is implied by the speaker when they say “female”. All other definitions of female still exist even though one of them is “gender opposite of male”. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/201 "2021-07-04T20:18:15Z")
It’s not an accidental circular argument. ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/202 "2021-07-04T20:28:05Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That is circular. It means nothing. A circular argument is: Lying is morally wrong because it is morally wrong to lie. If my definition is any fallacy, it is question begging, not circular. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447.md?page=11)