# Do trans girl athletes have an advantage? \[Moderated title for clarity\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2021, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447 "2021-07-01T17:36:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/364 "2021-10-04T14:44:42Z")
Sports have categories that are based on physical characteristics. Age, weight and gender among them. All schools are not large enough to accommodate all sports. My school (Galt CA Joint Union High) did not have a girls track team. All things are not everywhere available. Trans-persons can still be trained and coached for such competitions that do exist. If this issue is so miniscule why is it a problem that needs to be addressed? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/365 "2021-10-04T14:54:14Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Sports have categories that are based on physical characteristics. Age, weight and gender among them. All schools are not large enough to accommodate all sports. While that is true, bear in mind that, say, “water polo player” is not a category of human being in the same sense that “woman” or “trans woman” is. Water polo players aren’t a protected class. If your high school isn’t big enough to merit a water polo team that’s not discrimination in the legal or moral sense. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/366 "2021-10-04T14:56:19Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > If this issue is so miniscule why is it a problem that needs to be addressed? Because the people involved are human beings who deserve to be treated with respect, rather than insultingly superficial “equality”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/367 "2021-10-04T15:05:55Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > If this issue is so miniscule why is it a problem that needs to be addressed? As I suspected, you offered this as a rhetorical gambit, not a serious proposal. We may dismiss it as glibly as you offered it. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/368 "2021-10-04T18:14:08Z")
No, please consider the post rather than the poster. Establishing trans sports categories would allow competition without controversy and free from intrusive control of medications and intrusive disclosure of medical status and history. [Here](https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geKeQeQFthkpQAXglXNyoA;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1633398943/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fmedicine.uw.edu%2fnews%2fsex-hormones-and-athletes/RK=2/RS=wrg.foeS_BYUhO0t11oeDa_8TIc-) and [Here](https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geKeQeQFthkpQAYAlXNyoA;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzIEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1633398943/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2fpmc%2farticles%2fPMC5357259%2f/RK=2/RS=LbU9zm2I54iKWZ20yjl3N546PAE-) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/369 "2021-10-04T19:04:52Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Establishing trans sports categories would allow competition (I cut off the rest of your sentence because it was adjectival phrases modifying “competition,” and your post is false even without those qualifiers.) We’ve already discussed that it wouldn’t. Establishing trans sports categories, _if trans athletes were ghettoized into those categories_, would _prevent_ competition: it’s a very small subset of athletes, and most of the time the athletes would lack a competitor. I have no idea why you searched Yahoo for a couple of overviews of the research. Without relevant quotes, this just looks like a random link dump, and does nothing to further the conversation. > [@Crane](#): > > No, please consider the post rather than the poster. The proposal is ludicrous, so ludicrous that the reader must wonder why it was offered. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/370 "2021-10-04T19:25:33Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The proposal is ludicrous, so ludicrous that the reader must wonder why it was offered. I linked to studies that answer the advantage question of the OP and address the complicated issues my adjectival phrases identify that modify “competition”. Not sure why this is such a sore spot. Gender categories are traditional in sports. Trans categories may not be practical, but are hardly ludicrous. I believe they would be respectful and supportive of the people involved. Oh yeah if glib is an issue, reread the OP: “Would it depend on how long they had been taking hormones or whether or not they had their naughty bits cut off?” ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/371 "2021-10-04T19:41:43Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Not sure why this is such a sore spot. You’re trivializing a complex and difficult issue. The answer is not “obvious”. The 350 posts before yours were not written by village idiots who can’t see the obvious brilliance of creating two separate sports leagues in every single existent sport for 1% of the population. Leagues that would have a hard time fielding two basketball teams in an entire county. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/372 "2021-10-04T19:46:23Z")
I’m not really buying into that 1% number. It seems to me that the trans population has grown quite a bit in recent years due to more societal acceptance. If we add in non-binary identifications, we’re probably closer to 5% and growing. Still not nearly enough to add a third category to gendered sports, but enough that putting them all in women’s sports could very well have a negative impact on women. (Are high school sports referred to as men’s and women’s? I thought it was boys’ and girls’ when I was growing up but I could be misremembering.) ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/373 "2021-10-04T20:01:59Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The answer is not “obvious”. The 350 posts before yours were not written by village idiots Does your post present an ad populum argument? My high School l had one long distance runner. He was coached and trained in PE class. When we went to larger towns, like Elk Grove, he had 2 or 3 competitors. We had one student in shot put. I don’t see the problem with small numbers. There seems to be a lack of support for trans sport. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/374 "2021-10-04T20:12:43Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Does your post present an ad populum argument? No, because I’m not arguing that numerous people think it’s a complex issue, I’m arguing that numerous people whom I know to be intelligent think it’s a complex issue. ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/375 "2021-10-04T20:27:18Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > My high School l had one long distance runner. He was coached and trained in PE class. When we went to larger towns, like Elk Grove, he had 2 or 3 competitors. We had one student in shot put. > > I don’t see the problem with small numbers. There seems to be a lack of support for trans sport. That’s all well and good for sports that are basically individual in nature, but team sports present more difficulty. My daughter plays high school volleyball. If you can’t get at least ten players together (6 on court plus libero plus subs) you don’t have a team. You can’t play volleyball as an individual sport. Perhaps you could put together a beach volleyball team as that requires only two players. Half of her high school of 2000 children are girls, less than 50 of whom play on the volleyball teams (varsity, JV and freshman teams). So 5% of her school’s girls are volleyball players, and perhaps 8% went out for the team. If 0.5% of her school is trans girls, and 8% of them went out for the team, there would be a trans girl team consisting of 0.8 trans girls. Again, maybe you could get a team for beach volleyball, but not the full team sport. And frankly, it’s the _team_ aspect of the sport that my daughter and most of her teammates like. This would be especially true for someone who’s probably feeling pretty alienated in her regular high school existence. Cutting someone off from that communal camaraderie in the name of “the integrity of records” or some similar objection would IMHO be rather cruel. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/376 "2021-10-04T20:41:43Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > And the recommendations are suggesting that it won’t be easy (or likely even to be possible) to come up with a one-size-fits-all across sports. This has been my position for some time. There are some venues where sports are mostly about learning skills and participating on a team, like elementary school soccer. There are others where the goal is individual excellence, to the extent that players routinely cheat by taking dangerous and unregulated drugs, like the Olympics. For the first sort of venue, it seems obvious that trans girls should compete with the other girls, and trans boys with the other boys. For venues like the Olympics it is probably appropriate to rely on complex rules that include blood tests and other invasive procedures. There’s a reason that most of the heat has been over high school sports – because that’s approximately where the crossover is. That’s when athletes and their parents begin to feel that money (for instance college scholarships) is on the line. And yet, most high school athletics are not high stakes. Most could be appropriately handled by including the trans girls with the other girls, and the trans boys with the other boys. In fact, states that have done exactly that haven’t had any real problems. Even most college athletics are not high stakes. But in college the distinction between intramural and professional-feeder is more distinct, so it’s probably easier to clearly identify a large number of categories where there are zero problems accommodating the trans kids, and a few categories where the physiological issues matter more. But it does seem that a sport-by-sport and venue-by-venue determination is likely best. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/377 "2021-10-04T21:15:29Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > I linked to studies that answer the advantage question of the OP and address the complicated issues my adjectival phrases identify that modify “competition”. No phrases are needed to modify “competition” because your proposal doesn’t allow competition. Your cites were just rando Yahoo searches, and not relevant. > [@Crane](#): > > Not sure why this is such a sore spot. To the contrary, I’m not sure why you think this is a good subject to waltz into and front like you’ve got a genius solution to the problem–and then to ignore, over and over, the bleedin’ obvious problems with your solution. Does that generally work in life, in your experience? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/378 "2021-10-04T23:04:37Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > I don’t see the problem with small numbers. There seems to be a lack of support for trans sport. You don’t see the problem you then pointed out?? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/379 "2021-10-04T23:06:51Z")
I think we didn’t have enough players for boys’ volleyball at my high school. Therefore the boys weren’t allowed to play in high school, despite the feeder school having a very competitive mixed team. The girls from that team got to keep playing competitively in high school. The boys, _because of their sex-based athletic advantage_ (we’re talking ages 14-18), were not allowed to join the girls’ team. I think the rule was that the boys were allowed to have their own team but they couldn’t convince enough students to join. Or maybe there were no other schools with boys’ teams to play against. They ended up becoming the core of the boys’ soccer team. It seems to be a foregone conclusion that the answer to the OP is yes, transgender girl athletes _can_ have an advantage. I think such girls would be harassed for their transgender status whenever they do well in sports, even if hard work, not biology, gives them a competitive advantage. Now, I think if there’s a sizable number of transgender girls who want to compete in high school, it might be possible to organize regional teams. ~~Not unlike what we do for students with certain disabilities such as visual impairment, the numbers are somewhat similar from what I can tell (around 0.4%).~~ ETA: Looks like we don’t do that. There are things like golfball or beep baseball but apparently not school sports. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/380 "2021-10-04T23:36:19Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’m kind of bouncing around like a pinball with this. The ‘average girl’ high school athlete competing in track is going to have the same “there’s no way I’m winning this race, unless X trips and breaks her leg on the way to the starting blocks” for the following opposing runners: > the local county champ in your race > a 17 year old Florence Griffith > a transgirl runner who was one of the better runners on the boys track team last year, and who is not taking any hormones > a cis girl who has been taking testosterone for the last 5 years > a 20 year old D1 college sprinter pretending to be a high schooler for gags > a cis girl riding a motorcycle (who might even win with a broken leg) > > Some of these are clearly fair, some are clearly unfair, but they are all instances where the average athlete is destined to lose the race. Somewhere in this list there has to be a line where you separate the “you race the person in the next lane, and don’t complain” from the “this is not a fair competition”. > > I do have to admit, this issue is a very rare one for the typical athlete, akin to being in a race with the county champion. Where it does crop up is for the county champion runner herself who is hoping for a scholarship, or to run in college, but who is NOT actually the champion because of a couple of other runners who happen to have Y chromosomes. In my opinion, the only fair competition would be the local county champ and a 17-year old Florence Griffith. And those two probably aren’t fair either. If I were a competitive girl athlete (which I am not and never was), a fair race means I’m facing people _in my class_. If I put in nearly the same amount of effort, the same amount of training, display a comparable level of skill, and I still lose (or win!) by a landslide, then barring a fluke it isn’t _fair_; all other things are _not_ equal by process of elimination, and there is an unfair advantage by definition. The notion of elite sports does not always line up with sex or age brackets, especially at the youth level. Read **Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness** ’s sage post at #342, > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Victory is hugely dependent on wealth. Rich kids whose parents can afford to drive them all over the region for meets, who can afford to buy them the best equipment, who can afford to pay for private coaches–hell, who can afford to live off a single income so the other parent can dedicate their lives to the child’s sport–have an enormous advantage. But we don’t segregate by wealth. > > Victory is hugely dependent on body type. Kids with larger frames and who muscle more easily have a tremendous advantage. But we don’t actually segregate by body type. > > Instead, we segregate by sex and age. These are at best rough approximations of segregating by body type–and they do nothing to address the wealth advantage. > > […] > > The system is fundamentally broken. We’re fussing over whether trans kids should play according to their chromosomal makeup not because that’ll fix the system, but because it lets us pretend the system is fixable. In high school sports, maybe not the official school sports but in club sports, if your team is doing way better than others in your age bracket, you play older kids. Because it’s just not fair to destroy the kids at your level - it’s not fair to the winners or the losers. So going back to the solo sport of your average cis-girl running competitively against a local county champ, a young Florence Griffin, an adult, a transgender girl, and a doped-up girl, the answer is that no, it probably isn’t a fair race. The local champ and Ms. Griffin probably belong in a different class, and the others have obviously unfair advantages. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/381 "2021-10-04T23:56:13Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > So going back to the solo sport of your average cis-girl running competitively against a local county champ, a young Florence Griffin, an adult, a transgender girl, and a doped-up girl, the answer is that no, it probably isn’t a fair race. The local champ and Ms. Griffin probably belong in a different class, and the others have obviously unfair advantages. One thing is that this kind of ability discrepancy can, and does, happen naturally at the HS level. The teams are made from the random assortment of kids in the district. Florence Griffin was a teen at one time and likely dominated whatever HS track events she competed in. In Shaquille O’Neal’s HS team photo, he’s head-and-shoulders taller than everyone else. Likely he dominated any games he played in. Michael Phelps went to HS and likely won every swim event he was in. That’s just the way it goes. They don’t make these superstar kids go to a different team or school to try to balance the ability. They play on their HS teams along with all the other kids of normal ability. Having a trans girl on the track team would likely confer some advantage, but it wouldn’t necessarily be unfair considering that a teenage FG could be on a HS team and we wouldn’t think that was unfair. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/382 "2021-10-05T00:05:00Z")
I think you missed my point, which is that it _isn’t_ fair. As to your point, just because something happens every now and then doesn’t mean it’s fair. Just because it happens naturally, doesn’t mean it’s _fair_. This is of course, a matter of opinion. But if my sucky-to-average gradeschool basketball team is up against the team of unusually tall superstar kids with godly basketball skills, that just isn’t a fair game. ETA: It’s not fair for the people who have a natural advantage either. You could say nature gives them an _unfair advantage_. It’s not fair to let them play against “normal” kids, it’s also not fair to the gifted kid to take them off the local teams. It’s just not fair all around. You can’t solve this problem by throwing out solutions that are unfair. _Somebody_ is going to have to question why they are different, and treated differently for those differences, because kids develop differently and it affects how they perform in sports. That much is unavoidable. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/383 "2021-10-05T02:23:08Z")
I disagree with just about every characterization of fair and unfair in the last few posts. If I were one of Michael Phelps’ high school peers and I joined the swim team, and he proceeded to wipe the floor with me every meet, it’s because he has a fair advantage. Not an unfair advantage. The key being that it’s a level playing field. Simply put, in this hypothetical, the best man won. Our society has long understood that women do not have a level playing field against men. But just because one man is way better than another, that doesn’t mean the outclassed guy lost because of an unfair advantage. Guy versus guy is fair. In the vast majority of cases, adults have an unfair advantage over kids, and men have an unfair advantage over women. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447.md?page=20)