# Do trans girl athletes have an advantage? \[Moderated title for clarity\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2021, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447 "2021-07-01T17:36:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/384 "2021-10-05T02:29:15Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > If I were one of Michael Phelps’ high school peers and I joined the swim team, and he proceeded to wipe the floor with me every meet, it’s because he has a fair advantage. Not an unfair advantage. What makes that advantage fair? I’m assuming that you’re talking about his genetic advantages, not what he got from dedicating himself to practice. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/385 "2021-10-05T02:32:17Z")
Are you saying that all advantages are by definition unfair? An example of an unfair advantage would be performance enhancing drugs. Or being a hundred pounds heavier in a combat sport. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/386 "2021-10-05T02:49:42Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I disagree with just about every characterization of fair and unfair in the last few posts. > > If I were one of Michael Phelps’ high school peers and I joined the swim team, and he proceeded to wipe the floor with me every meet, it’s because he has a fair advantage. Not an unfair advantage. The key being that it’s a level playing field. Simply put, in this hypothetical, the best man won. > > Our society has long understood that women do not have a level playing field against men. But just because one man is way better than another, that doesn’t mean the outclassed guy lost because of an unfair advantage. Guy versus guy is fair. > > In the vast majority of cases, adults have an unfair advantage over kids, and men have an unfair advantage over women. I agree. Fair and equal aren’t the same thing. The goal should be to have a fair competition, not necessarily an equal one. Unless we’re talking about combat sports like boxing or MMA, or a collision sport like football, I would have no problem with someone like Shaq, Michael Phelps, or Tiger Woods competing against those athletes of lesser abilities at the high school level. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/387 "2021-10-05T02:53:27Z")
I wouldn’t go so far as high school since they’re not fully grown. Against college kids, sure. EDIT: Unless you meant while they were in high school also, in which case totally agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/388 "2021-10-05T03:16:49Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Are you saying that all advantages are by definition unfair? Fair, in my mind, means deserved. I must be a godless man at heart, to believe the natural excellences of one child, compared to the natural deficiencies of another, are inherently undeserved, and thus unfair. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/389 "2021-10-05T03:30:52Z")
That seems bizarre to me. Are you a sports fan? ---
**Author:** ![Summerday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Summerday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Summerday)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/390 "2021-10-05T03:43:57Z")
I agree with the key points in the guidelines listed below. I suppose that opinions vary about whether trans-inclusion or competitive fairness and safety should be prioritized. For me, competitive fairness and safety should be prioritized. I feel that way because transgirls can competitively play on the boy’s team if they want to. If high-school sports mean that much to them, they can play/participate if they want…it would just have to be on the boy’s team. A cis-girl who loses her spot on the team to a trans-girl is pushed out of high-school sports. So, it seems that the option that allows the largest number of teens who want to play high school sports to actually play high school sports is transgirls play on the boy’s team (hopefully renamed the open team) and cis-girls play on the girl’s team which would be female-only. (And renamed to the female team.) > [@](#): > > **What are the key points in the new guidelines?** > […] > > 1. The science shows that trans women retain physique, strength and stamina advantages; 2) There is no magic solution that balances trans inclusion in female gender-affected sport with competitive fairness and safety; 3) Therefore some sports will have to make a conscious choice prioritising either inclusion or fairness and safety. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/391 "2021-10-05T03:46:04Z")
> [@Summerday](#): > > A cis-girl who loses her spot on the team to a trans-girl is pushed out of high-school sports. As is a cis-boy who loses his spot on the open team to a trans-girl. (Did you overlook that?) ~Max ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/392 "2021-10-05T03:48:21Z")
Nothing unfair about a cis boy losing his spot to a trans girl. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/393 "2021-10-05T03:48:53Z")
The idea that kids just go to the high school down the block is decades out of date. There is definitely jockeying to transfer and build dynasties and superteams. I would expect that a coach willing to recruit trans girls to a private school at the HS level could field an unbeatable team. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/394 "2021-10-05T03:49:23Z")
I was about to disagree, but then you said private school. Fair point. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/395 "2021-10-05T03:50:25Z")
The unfair thing is separate. I was just now countering **Summerday** ’s argument that allowing trans-girls to play on boys’ teams is > “the option that allows the largest number of teens who want to play high school sports to actually play high school sports” ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Summerday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Summerday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Summerday)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/396 "2021-10-05T03:50:41Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > As is a cis-boy who loses his spot on the open team to a trans-girl. (Did you overlook that?) What’s wrong with that? ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/397 "2021-10-05T03:50:46Z")
Transfer rules have been loosened in a lot of places and students definitely enroll in different public schools for sports related reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/398 "2021-10-05T03:52:21Z")
Nothing is necessarily _wrong_ about a student losing a spot. I’m just saying the total number of teens playing sports is unchanged no matter which team accepts transgender girls; your utilitarian argument rests on a false premise. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Summerday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Summerday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Summerday)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/399 "2021-10-05T04:01:27Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Nothing is necessarily _wrong_ about a student losing a spot. I’m just saying the total number of teens playing sports is unchanged no matter which team accepts transgender girls; your utilitarian argument rests on a false premise. Well, we’re not talking about the total number of teens playing high-school sports, we’re discussing the sex of the people who make up the teams. What’s changed is that instead of 10 cis-girls playing a high-school sport only 9 are…and conversely 11 males are playing that sport instead of 10. What’s the false premise? (I don’t mean for that to sound snarky.) ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/400 "2021-10-05T04:09:02Z")
As far as the “life isn’t fair” comments go, the trend has been to create more levels, to make things more fair. In my state, for the basketball tournament, there was no separation by school size until the 1970s, and no girls’ teams at all at that time. Now there are five different classifications by school size. Seven for boys’ football. So the trend has definitely been towards making the competitions more fair. There are definitely trans girls that will dominate if allowed to compete against cis girls. They will be the record setting girls because of the post puberty advantages in muscle mass. I can’t see shrugging our shoulders and doing everything in the face of current trends over this one issue. So trans girls should compete in their own class, or with the boys. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/401 "2021-10-05T04:13:29Z")
Okay, I see you did overlook it. You wrote, quote, > [@Summerday](#): > > A cis-girl who loses her spot on the team to a trans-girl is pushed out of high-school sports. So, it seems that the option that allows the largest number of teens who want to play high school sports to actually play high school sports is transgirls play on the boy’s team (hopefully renamed the open team) and cis-girls play on the girl’s team which would be female-only. (And renamed to the female team.) Imagine two teams with 10 slots each. 20 slots total. Let’s say 10 boys and 11 girls want to play the sport, and one of the girls is transgender. - Boys’ Team: 10 slots, 10 boys - Girls’ Team: 10 slots, 10 girls - Not playing but wants to play: 1 girl, assigned male at birth Now let’s pretend the girls’ team accepts transgender girls. - Boys’ Team: 10 slots, 10 boys - Girls’ Team: 10 slots, 10 girls (including one assigned male at birth) - Not playing but wants to play: 1 girl (cis) Now let’s pretend the boys’ team is renamed to the open team, and the transgender girl qualifies there. - Open Team: 10 slots, 9 boys, 1 girl assigned male at birth - Girls’ Team: 10 slots, 10 girls - Not playing but wants to play: 1 boy You will notice all of these scenarios have exactly twenty teens who want to play and actually get to play, and one teen who wants to play but can’t. So when you write, > “So, it seems that the option that allows the largest number of teens who want to play high school sports to actually play high school sports is transgirls play on the boy’s team” You are wrong. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Summerday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Summerday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Summerday)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/402 "2021-10-05T04:21:30Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > You are wrong. I misspoke. I meant that a trans girl can competitively play on the boy’s team or the girl’s team and a cis-girl can typically only competitively play on the girl’s team. So, while it is correct that the total number of teens who play would be unchanged, there wouldn’t be as many cis-girls playing high school sports as there would be if trans-girls played on the open/boy’s team instead of the girl’s team. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/403 "2021-10-05T04:25:24Z")
> [@Summerday](#): > > I meant that a trans girl can competitively play on the boy’s team I think you are making an unsupported assumption here. It is certainly _possible_, but by no means do I think it is reasonable to craft policy on the assumption that trans girls will be able to play competitively on a boys’ team. Even if she wanted to, which is unlikely in my opinion. ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447.md?page=21)