# Do trans girl athletes have an advantage? \[Moderated title for clarity\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2021, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447 "2021-07-01T17:36:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/504 "2021-10-05T18:33:00Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Google says somewhere between 50% and 60% of high school students participated in some kind of organized sport (school or community based) in the past year Search again for 2019 because COVID > [@EllisDee](#): > > Also, band is not a sport. It isn’t, but it means you have no time for practice. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/505 "2021-10-05T18:33:49Z")
Ha! Great point. Lemme look again… Just randomly googling for 2010, google says 55.5%. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/506 "2021-10-05T18:43:19Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I would bet a dollar that that 40% to 50% is vastly overrepresented on the SDMB. Okay, maybe you’re right. 🤷‍♂️ ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/507 "2021-10-05T18:56:38Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I would bet a dollar that that 40% to 50% is vastly overrepresented on the SDMB. This is _just_ not a relevant thing. We never limit opinions to folks with skin in the game, and if we did, cis-dudes would need to sit this convo out. My suggestion is we quit talking about the percentages of dopers who played high school sports as though it’s remotely relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/508 "2021-10-05T19:19:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The hypothetical supposed ‘hulking, muscular trans-woman who tosses aside her opponents with dangerous ease’ I don’t think this is the stereotype being used. The hypothetical is “a perfectly normal high school student with XY chromosomes who is not actively suppressing their body’s hormones”. I feel very uncomfortable telling that person they aren’t “girl” enough to play with the girls team, because they aren’t taking a bunch of drugs every day. I also feel uncomfortable letting that person play on the girl’s basketball team, and I don’t know how to reconcile the two. My town’s boys HS basketball team is also made up of “perfectly normal high school students with XY chromosomes who are not actively suppressing their body’s hormones”. That team has more players right now who can dunk during a game than the WNBA has had in its entire 25 year history (I might be wrong on that, but it won’t be by much). The variance of athleticism is striking and makes me concerned. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/509 "2021-10-05T19:32:09Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I feel very uncomfortable telling that person they aren’t “girl” enough to play with the girls team, because they aren’t taking a bunch of drugs every day. I also feel uncomfortable letting that person play on the girl’s basketball team, and I don’t know how to reconcile the two. This conundrum means there very likely isn’t a perfect solution that makes everyone happy. We can discuss things as an academic, philosophical question, but the reality is that it will be decided in school board meetings by the board members and the parents. And as we’ve seen from these types of meetings about school masks, these will be contentious issues. It won’t be resolved by someone with the wisdom of King Simon. It will be resolved by a mass of parents in the school district all shouting about their own personal viewpoint. Any kind of stable, real world solution will likely be one where both sides grumble about but neither is so upset that they politically mobilize to change. With regards to a trans girl playing basketball, what scenario would have you grumble but not be too upset about? What if she only played for a limited amount of time? What if she only played on the JV team? What is the imperfect compromise that both sides can live with? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/510 "2021-10-05T19:35:55Z")
What if her participation has no effect on safety or fairness in competition? Why assume every single trans girl will necessarily be so strong, fast, etc., that the sport will become unbalanced? ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/511 "2021-10-05T19:39:06Z")
With regards to what I was saying, these issues are ones where in the real world, there needs to be clear and unambiguous rules and guidelines. Anything that is supposed to be decided on a case-by-case basis is going to be extremely messy. School boards can’t even rationally discuss mask policy or which books should be in the library. There’s not going to be a good way to decide these matters on a case-by-case basis because school boards and parents are not sage and rational. And school boards tend to be more conservative in general, so I would think that they would tend to rule towards not allowing the trans athlete if given the choice. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/512 "2021-10-05T19:47:31Z")
It can be clear - let them play unless there’s a provable impact to competition or safety. And then have a clear process for making that determination. We might find out that many or even most trans girls have no such impact. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/513 "2021-10-05T19:53:20Z")
All high school teams are members of state wide associations that have rules for all sorts of things. Grades, conduct, age of participants, etc. Steroids are definitely an issue. Probably under the table money and gambling as well. It hasn’t been kids skipping around the maypole for 100 years and it really never was. So all of the associations are absolutely going to need rules to cover this. They are going to need to be able to say “no” or just let everyone self declare and the girls/womens sports are whoever self declares at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/514 "2021-10-05T20:01:02Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > With regards to a trans girl playing basketball, what scenario would have you grumble but not be too upset about? What if she only played for a limited amount of time? What if she only played on the JV team? What is the imperfect compromise that both sides can live with? We could have the “XX w/o hormone therapy” restricted division and the “Open” division. This sucks, but has the benefit of being clear and unambiguous. Cis boys and all Trans athletes will be in the open division, along with any cis-girls who want to be in the open division. We could let anyone who identifies as a girl play in the girl’s division. This also sucks, but is also clear and unambiguous. The risk here is that youth with the physiology of a cis boy can play with the girls. I’ve been a cis boy, a very pedestrian athlete for a cis boy, and would have dominated most cis girls I’ve known at competitive games I was good at. Maybe this risk is overblown, but I know how much stronger I was than the cis girls I was around. I personally don’t see a compromise solution that doesn’t inherently set trans athletes at the back of the proverbial bus, having to prove they aren’t a problem, or play a restricted game, or submit to medical treatments they may not want. I also don’t know how to handle youth who are gender uncertain. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/515 "2021-10-05T20:57:07Z")
Just have an open division and be done with it. The fascinating thing will be watching the reality is a social construct brigade’s cognitive dissonance being shattered. Not only is it hard to discuss the subject but now even the language used to discuss the subject is being deconstructed in order to make it impossible to discuss the subject without serious so-called consequences. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/516 "2021-10-05T21:08:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is _just_ not a relevant thing. We never limit opinions to folks with skin in the game, and if we did, cis-dudes would need to sit this convo out. My suggestion is we quit talking about the percentages of dopers who played high school sports as though it’s remotely relevant. I’m not talking about people who don’t have skin in the game. I’m talking about people who are openly hostile to sports. A lot of the suggestions in this thread come across to me like: Why don’t they just do this that and this? Because that would ruin sports as we know it. Who cares? Sports suck anyway. That’s the energy I’m getting from it anyway. I feel pointing that out is relevant to this discussion. Someone who is hostile to sports should not be tossing out ideas on how to fix sports. Plus the idea some people put forward that most dopers like sports is just pure insanity. (As an exercise, how many posts in this thread include people unironically suggesting that sports do away with gender segregation all together and just have a single set of mixed leagues? Also apparently winning and losing is verboten according to some.) ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/517 "2021-10-05T22:30:23Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Huh? How so? Is anyone trying to prevent cis girls from playing high school sports? Girls are the only ones here at risk of having to compete in an unfair environment. They’re their the only ones being asked to bear the costs, if any, of including transgirls. I’m not actually 100% against the inclusion of transgirls in girls sports, but the prospect of a senior on the girl’s track team suddenly having to run against someone who was on the boy’s team last year and isn’t taking any hormones does seem a bit unfair to me. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Edited to add: do you think sports are only healthy if you win? Because of that’s your perspective, we should remove sports from school entirely. I don’t think that’s true at all. I think competing, teamwork, and improving your physical performance are all beneficial to kids. And i think kids can get all those benefits even if they have a lower chance of being the best in the school. No. I think they’re only healthy when they’re competitive though. There’s a reason we separate boys and girls when it comes to sports. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/518 "2021-10-05T22:50:03Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > No. I think they’re only healthy when they’re competitive though. There’s a reason we separate boys and girls when it comes to sports. That’s fair, and i agree. I guess we have a couple of factual questions that we don’t know the answer to. How many trans girls are there, once it’s not so horrible to come out as trans, and how much better at sports will they be than cis girls. My guess is that there won’t be enough trans girls who are athletic to really disrupt girls’ sports. So far, that’s been the answer in the states that have allowed trans girls to play on the girls’ teams. But i suppose that might change if a lot more trans girls come out in the future. I’m willing to gamble on that. It’s not as if this is a policy decision that needs to be made once and can never be reconsidered. ---
**Author:** ![Summerday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Summerday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Summerday)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2021, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/519 "2021-10-06T07:12:23Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Is she over 18? She’s probably not legally able to medically transition. And i don’t think we want society to force her to castrate herself at that age. I don’t know, is she? There are seniors who are 18 who are eligible to play high school sports. It’s my understanding that a person can transition using hormones without surgery or they can undergo sex reassignment surgery in addition to hormone treatment. So, I’m not sure why you mention forcing people to castrate themselves and it’s unclear to me how that’s related to my post. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2021, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/520 "2021-10-06T07:25:53Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Let trans girls play on the female teams. Isn’t this experiment _already_ being run in some states (I’ve read about specifics in CA, NJ and NH)? Without serious issues, from what I understand. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2021, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/521 "2021-10-06T09:36:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Isn’t this experiment _already_ being run in some states Yes. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Without serious issues, from what I understand. And so far, yes. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2021, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/522 "2021-10-06T09:38:48Z")
> [@Summerday](#): > > It’s my understanding that a person can transition using hormones without surgery or they can undergo sex reassignment surgery in addition to hormone treatment. So, I’m not sure why you mention forcing people to castrate themselves and it’s unclear to me how that’s related to my post. I’m sorry, i misunderstood your post. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2021, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/523 "2021-10-06T10:43:52Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Also apparently winning and losing is verboten according to some. You make a lot of “apparently” claims in this post. I just don’t think they’re accurate. Who in this thread is saying this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447.md?page=27)