# Do trans girl athletes have an advantage? \[Moderated title for clarity\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2021, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447 "2021-07-01T17:36:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/584 "2021-10-07T16:36:28Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Yes, really. However good you are you play with your competitive peers. The more we move away from gender segregation in sports the better. It certainly solves all the problems related to the trans issue. Getting rid of gender (sex, really) segregation in sports would, of course, create the problem of severely reducing good opportunities for cis females. The “just play with your competitive peers” angle keeps ignoring the fact that at levels beyond casual, males do not have competitive peers among females once puberty hits. If there is no segregation by sex or gender, just competition levels, all competitors beyond intramural and rec leagues will be male. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/585 "2021-10-07T16:44:35Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Getting rid of gender (sex, really) segregation in sports would, of course, create the problem of severely reducing good opportunities for cis females. Yes it does. Which is brings us back round to such females seeking to ring-fence their competition in some way. There is no perfect solution. > [@RickJay](#): > > The “just play with your competitive peers” angle keeps ignoring the fact that at levels beyond casual, males do not have competitive peers among females once puberty hits. If there is no segregation by sex or gender, just competition levels, all competitors beyond intramural and rec leagues will be male. A case could be made that you run as many teams as there are interested competitors and let the chips fall where they may but yes, the top levels that people would be interested in will definitely all be male. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/586 "2021-10-07T18:07:56Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > There is no perfect solution. To what problem? There doesn’t seem to be an actual problem that needs a solution. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/587 "2021-10-07T18:12:04Z")
Like^ ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/588 "2021-10-07T18:18:19Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I don’t actually think that one or two kids proves anything. I generally buy into this line of thinking. It’s my Index Card Theory of National Importance. If you can list all the people involved in the problem on one index card, it isn’t of national importance. OTOH, if a problem crops up in this area, it could be one that is of ridiculous proportion. I mean Secretariat at the Belmont level of destroying the competition. Maybe the best approach is to just let them be who they are, let them compete as who they are and take these potential problems as simply potentials and deal with it if they actually happen. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/589 "2021-10-07T18:22:45Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > A case could be made that you run as many teams as there are interested competitors and let the chips fall where they may but yes, the top levels that people would be interested in will definitely all be male. That sounds like the sort of case that would mostly be made by men. I’m not sure telling half the human race “too bad so sad” is a progressive approach here. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/590 "2021-10-07T19:51:43Z")
Right? It’s like, we all agree that there’s no actual problem yet, but let’s figure out how to radically design everything to deal with this non-problem anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/591 "2021-10-07T20:47:26Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > To what problem? There doesn’t seem to be an actual problem that needs a solution. In adult sport there is certainly a need for a solution, that’s what the UK sports council report was about. In high school sport? perhaps not yet but I would expect that sooner or later the challenges seen in adult sport will have to be faced there as well and I expect it’ll be no more straightforward. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/592 "2021-10-07T20:50:37Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That sounds like the sort of case that would mostly be made by men. I’m not sure telling half the human race “too bad so sad” is a progressive approach here. That’s probably true but then a decent enough proportion of that population half aren’t necessarily convinced that the current situation leads to the best outcomes either. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/593 "2021-10-07T20:55:32Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > In adult sport there is certainly a need for a solution, that’s what the UK sports council report was about. > In high school sport? perhaps not yet but I would expect that sooner or later the challenges seen in adult sport will have to be faced there as well and I expect it’ll be no more straightforward. Let’s solve it if and when the problem arises. And let’s keep in mind that the goals for adult sport (create a highly lucrative entertainment industry) are completely different from the goals for children’s sport (create an enriching, fun, healthy, character-building social structure for children). ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/594 "2021-10-07T20:58:11Z")
Yes. If someone wants to create “blond goddess mud wrestling”, and only allows tall, blonde, busty women to compete in their sport, I really don’t care. But I would sure as hell care if they tried to start up a team in my child’s school. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/595 "2021-10-07T20:58:19Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > In adult sport there is certainly a need for a solution… I think that’s officially off-topic for this thread, as per the mod note in post 4 or 5. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/596 "2021-10-07T21:07:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Let’s solve it if and when the problem arises. I suspect that will be the approach taken > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And let’s keep in mind that the goals for adult sport (create a highly lucrative entertainment industry) are completely different from the goals for children’s sport (create an enriching, fun, healthy, character-building social structure for children). I have to disagree with such a clear distinction. The vast majority of adult sports that I’m aware of are done with no financial gain in mind and are very much done for the reasons you give as relating just to children. I think of the sports I take part in and none are part of the entertainment industry and all are governed by singular bodies that set rules for adults and juniors alike. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2021, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/597 "2021-10-08T02:12:27Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The vast majority of adult sports that I’m aware of are done with no financial gain in mind and are very much done for the reasons you give as relating just to children. “Vast majority” by what metric? Number of participants? Number of distinct sports? If you’re just referring to participation by adult amateurs in athletic activities for “an enriching, fun, healthy, character-building social structure”, then we’re back at not needing to worry whether a tiny minority of athletes who are transgender have an “unfair advantage”. Because whether they do or they don’t, it’s not really interfering with anybody else’s enrichment, fun, health or character-building. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2021, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/598 "2021-10-08T03:19:56Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The vast majority of adult sports that I’m aware of are done with no financial gain in mind and are very much done for the reasons you give as relating just to children. I think of the sports I take part in and none are part of the entertainment industry and all are governed by singular bodies that set rules for adults and juniors alike. And all the sports I’ve taken part in as an adult were coed, so there’s really no issue at all. But > [@RitterSport](#): > > I think that’s officially off-topic for this thread, as per the mod note in post 4 or 5. let’s get back to kid’s sports. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2021, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/599 "2021-10-08T06:49:03Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > “Vast majority” by what metric? Number of participants? Number of distinct sports? all of the above > [@Kimstu](#): > > whether they do or they don’t, it’s not really interfering with anybody else’s enrichment, fun, health or character-building. Sure, if that remains the case for all the people involved then there is no problem. At the point where enough of those involved _are_ concerend with those factors then there will be. ---
**Author:** ![Summerday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Summerday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Summerday)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2021, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/600 "2021-10-08T09:11:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Two girls try out for an open spot on the basketball team, one is tall and one is short. They both have put in a lot of work and preparation, they both want it badly, and they both will benefit from playing high-school sports. In that scenario, the tall girl is going to get the spot on the team the vast majority of the time. Why is that OK? It’s OK because I presume they’re both cis-girls. It’s OK for the same reason it’s OK for one kid to win the youth (18 or younger) amateur singing competition and another kid who can’t hit the same notes to lose. It wouldn’t be OK for that kid to lose to a 25 yr old professional singer who was allowed to enter the competition. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If you want to make these sports fair, you’ve got a lot of work to do with _actual, existing inequities_ before we start with this bugbear. What are your thoughts about this part of my post? > [@Summerday](#): > > Obviously, the objective should be to make high-school sports as fair as possible (which is the purpose of segregating sports by sex) but if the best we can do is mostly-fair-but-also-sometimes-completely-unfair, why shouldn’t those unfair moments in girls’ high-school sports not be in favor of and benefit females? > [@puzzlegal](#): > > In this scenario, why is the trans girl forcing a cis girl off the team if she plays in the girl’s league, but isn’t forcing a cis boy off the team if she plays in the boy’s league? Because the boy lost fair and square. We don’t live in a perfect world where everything is 100% fair, so maybe some people believe that it isn’t fair that one male can run faster than another male, but fairness in sports doesn’t mean protection from losing. It means that we try to make the playing field as level as possible, and segregation by sex is one of the ways that we do that…therefore a male losing to another male isn’t unfair. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > By and large, sports participation isn’t zero sum. Where it is, maybe the problem is that the school should be creating more teams. I don’t agree that it’s not zero sum…there are only so many spots on the team. More teams would be great, but I doubt that most schools can afford it. If it’s economically possible, maybe it would help if it became standard for every high-school to have an open team, a female team, and a co-ed team. > [@MrDibble](#): > > This assumes quite a bit about the transgirl’s abilities that aren’t accounted for in the scenario setup. I think the thing that most people who oppose trans girls in girl’s sports want to avoid is a transgirl who can’t play competitively on the boy’s side because they’re not talented enough, but can play competitively against the girls because of the advantages from their male body. So, my scenario assumed that this transgirl can do well against the boys because otherwise it would be “unacceptable” in my, and a lot of other people’s, opinion for them to play against cis-girls. It’s unacceptable for the same reason that most people would oppose allowing 35 yr olds to compete in the spelling bee, or enroll in 3rd grade, or compete in little league. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2021, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/601 "2021-10-08T12:50:47Z")
So, to summarize, you think it’s okay if the transgirl can’t play with the girls, but you think it’s horribly unfair if a cis girl gets bumped from varsity to jv. And you don’t think it’s important that there be enough sports opportunities for all the kids to play on some team – that’s not the policy you want to lobby for. Instead you want to lobby for keeping the trans girls away from the girls teams. Is that fair? ---
**Author:** ![Summerday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Summerday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Summerday)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2021, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/602 "2021-10-09T08:05:03Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > So, to summarize, you think it’s okay if the transgirl can’t play with the girls, but you think it’s horribly unfair if a cis girl gets bumped from varsity to jv. I don’t think it’s fair if a cis girl gets bumped down to JV or loses her spot on the team altogether to a transgirl. I think it’s perfectly fine for a cis girl to be bumped down to JV or lose her spot on the team altogether to a cis girl. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > And you don’t think it’s important that there be enough sports opportunities for all the kids to play on some team that’s not the policy you want to lobby for. Instead you want to lobby for keeping the trans girls away from the girls teams. > > Is that fair? How did you come to the conclusion that I don’t think it’s important to create enough sports opportunities for all kids from me suggesting that we create a third co-ed team? More teams = more opportunities for more kids to play. I said that idk if it’s economically possible to add another team not that I oppose adding more teams. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2021, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/603 "2021-10-09T12:03:48Z")
> [@Summerday](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > So, to summarize, you think it’s okay if the transgirl can’t play with the girls, but you think it’s horribly unfair if a cis girl gets bumped from varsity to jv. > > I don’t think it’s fair if a cis girl gets bumped down to JV or loses her spot on the team altogether to a transgirl. I think it’s perfectly fine for a cis girl to be bumped down to JV or lose her spot on the team altogether to a cis girl. You ignored my first question. Do you think it’s okay that transgirls get excluded from girl’s sports? No cost there? > [@Summerday](#): > > How did you come to the conclusion that I don’t think it’s important to create enough sports opportunities for all kids from me suggesting that we create a third co-ed team? Because you ignored that in many sports, especially at the lower levels, there aren’t hard limits on the number of kids who can join. Instead, you want to create an economic hardship to make sure that we can exclude the trans girls from the girls teams. That felt like a throwaway suggestion that will be dismissed as economically infeasible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447.md?page=31)