# Do trans girl athletes have an advantage? \[Moderated title for clarity\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2021, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447 "2021-07-01T17:36:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/103 "2021-07-03T22:05:54Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > This means you can have a _girl_ (gender) in a _male_ (sex) body, going through _male_ (sex) puberty and having their development guided by _male_ (sex) hormones like testosterone, but this doesn’t invalidate her _identity_ (gender) as a girl/woman, because gender identity is distinct from sex and is amenable to change. Testosterone is not a “male” hormone. It is present in male and female and non-binary persons. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/104 "2021-07-03T22:11:58Z")
> [@HughGoply](#): > > Testosterone is not a “male” hormone. It is present in male and female and non-binary persons. Agreed. However, since testosterone in present in male persons (and male-bodied non-binary persons) at much higher quantities than in female persons, I’d like to suggest that, for the purposes of this conversation, we agree to refer to testosterone as a ‘male’ hormone. If that’s not acceptable, I’m happy to use any term you’d prefer. That said, whatever we settle on mustn’t obscure the fact that male persons produce far more testosterone (on average) than females, and that this translates into enhanced athletic performance in the vast majority (but not all) sports. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/105 "2021-07-03T22:49:05Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > It’d work just fine. It’d exclude most girls from competing but that doesn’t seem to be a problem for some posters. Indeed. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/106 "2021-07-03T23:05:00Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > If that’s not acceptable, I’m happy to use any term you’d prefer. Let’s call testosterone a Goply hormone. Or just a hormone. ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/107 "2021-07-03T23:05:49Z")
Maybe the best solution is to get rid the sex categories. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/108 "2021-07-03T23:07:06Z")
> [@HughGoply](#): > > Imagine if we said basketball would be moved from the court to cold, open water and the game would last 12 hours with no breaks. Now who has the advantage? How many people would be at all interested in playing such a sport let alone watching it? One of the nice things about basketball is that it’s an incredibly inexpensive sport to play. All you need is a goal, a little plot of land, and the ball and you’re in business. You could live in a small podunk little town in Georgia and still be able to play basketball. You want to know who has the advantage if we move basketball to the cold open water? Wealthy people. The majority of people, cis gender, transgender, boy, girl, or non-binary would be excluded from such a sport. ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/109 "2021-07-03T23:14:01Z")
If there are no girls or boys, just students, there is nothing to get upset about. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/110 "2021-07-03T23:22:12Z")
Unless you’re female, or do they not count? Come on, Hugh. You know full well that the overwhelming number of humans on this earth are born pretty clearly male or female, and you know that if there’s no sex distinction in sports the females are blown out of competitive sports after puberty hits. THEY will think it’s unfair. In fact, you know what’d happen? Realizing they have zero chance at competing in the sports leagues you think are super fine even though all the females are unable to seriously compete, they’ll set up their own sports leagues. Are you going to force them to stop? ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/111 "2021-07-03T23:44:30Z")
Only a tiny minority get to be competitive athletes. We exclude so many groups of people by selecting the best to compete. Why create a special catagory at schools for just one group? Maybe we change how we judge sports in schools. Open competition to all comers with a random selection to compete and judge athletes based on effort, not results that are largely based on genetic luck. Like judging ice skating, we can have an objective and subjective component to the judging. This way, the next LeBron James can compete directly against a 4’8" paraplegic girl and it will all balance out. School sports open to everyone on equal footing regardless of genetics. Win-win. ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/112 "2021-07-03T23:48:40Z")
It’s nice to work through this. I really think this is a great solution. Have all students compete equally regardless of physical gifts. Who could be against this? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/113 "2021-07-04T00:08:25Z")
Everybody who understands both why Title IX applies to sports and that only a finite amount of both spots and resources are available. Seriously, do you know why American women routinely smoke international competition? It’s not just that we’re a rich country with the will and the money to support years of specialized training, though that helps. It’s because for nearly fifty years now K-12 schools and colleges/universities have had to give equal support to girls’ and women’s sports. It’s not always done well, there are some legitimate criticisms on the effects on men’s sports when it’s defined as X number of scholarships each, and frankly despite the talk there are definitely cases where women still aren’t treated equally. There’s nothing wrong with the idea of everyone who wants to play should be able to play. But for most people, that’s things like intramurals. Casual play for fun and exercise. Any roster of competitive spots in an “open” system is going to be all men simply because they are bigger, stronger, and faster. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/114 "2021-07-04T00:08:51Z")
> [@HughGoply](#): > > This way, the next LeBron James can compete directly against a 4’8" paraplegic girl and it will all balance out. You had me going there. I honestly thought you were serious but it looks like you’re just messing with us. Congratulations, you had me hook, line, and sinker. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/115 "2021-07-04T00:09:33Z")
Nobody tell him about the Paralympics. ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/116 "2021-07-04T00:11:38Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > You had me going there. I honestly thought you were serious but it looks like you’re just messing with us. Congratulations, you had me hook, line, and sinker. No, I’m serious. Especially for school sports. It’s about learning ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/117 "2021-07-04T00:21:04Z")
Part of learning when it comes to anything competitive is to be matched with or against similar competition. Your proposal has zero value based just on that concept alone. There should be, and there is, support for said short paraplegic girl to be able to play a sport to the best of her ability, though it may not be there in any given school. Frankly, your “no accomodations for anything” thinking would normally have already been torn apart on this board and I’m a little surprised it hasn’t been yet. ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/118 "2021-07-04T00:29:53Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Part of learning when it comes to anything competitive is to be matched with or against similar competition People will encounter a wide range of competition. ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/119 "2021-07-04T00:31:15Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Frankly, your “no accomodations for anything” thinking would normally have already been torn apart on this board and I’m a little surprised it hasn’t been yet. Maybe I’m changing minds. We’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/120 "2021-07-04T00:37:21Z")
> [@HughGoply](#): > > People will encounter a wide range of competition. To add on. Most people find it helpful to compete against people who are “better” than them, especially if they are much better. It forces them to really try just to keep up. It is usually the “better” competitor who is hurt because they can win without much effort. Notice how I fixed that. They are judged on effort. A “track star” may be able to cross the finish line first by jogging, but he’ll still lose if the other person runs as hard as they can. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/121 "2021-07-04T01:06:10Z")
_“At the outer edges of endurance sports, something interesting is happening: women are beating men”_ Cite: The Donner Party ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/122 "2021-07-04T01:23:37Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > [@HughGoply](#): > > > > Everything about us is biological at base. Being male or female is biological. Trans and cis women are female based on their biology. > > So what would be the tests we could do to determine whether someone was biologically male or female? X-ray of the pelvis? Drop the classification “male” and “female” altogether and just go by bone structure? P.S., are there actual medical terms, Latin perhaps, for “prototypically male pelvis” and “prototypically female pelvis”? Medicine has formal terms for just about everything but I couldn’t find a cite for this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447.md?page=7)