# Do trans girl athletes have an advantage? \[Moderated title for clarity\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2021, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447 "2021-07-01T17:36:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/163 "2021-07-04T16:58:19Z")
> [@LauderdaleFort](#): > > But, let’s say that, notwithstanding the nichest-of-the-niche characteristics of this activity, the cold-water open over-40km swims are distinctly favorable to XX humans. So? > Maybe XX humans are also better at, say, cheese rolling races, that doesn’t mean that we should socially engineer the whole landscspe of sports just to find a tiny, tiny few that might give some women an advantage. > Also, that type of swims might also mean fewer people even could try them. It’s not like you can “hey, let’s have some pickup 40km swim” or that there would be many “40km swim moms” in minivans taking their daughter to meets in Nome. > It also would screw trans athletes. But we’re currently screwing trans girls worse. States are banning them from participating in girls sports at their schools. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/164 "2021-07-04T17:00:18Z")
> [@HughGoply](#): > > > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > > > Who currently holds the record for that swim? > > How does that relate to students? We can extrapolate that girl students would be similarly good as adult women, but I’m not sure what the world record holder’s name has to do with anything. > > In any case, I don’t know a single person who holds a world record for any race in any sport for any distance I believe the current record holder for the race you mentioned is — a guy named Oliver Wilkinson. If, as _you_ just said, we “can extrapolate that girl students would be similarly good as adult women”, then we can presumably extrapolate stuff from the fact that the swimmer who did best in the race you brought up was — an adult man. ---
**Author:** ![LauderdaleFort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/977dab/32.png) [@LauderdaleFort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LauderdaleFort)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/165 "2021-07-04T17:06:36Z")
Yup, but if the proposal is “focus on a surprisingly obscure sport” it doesn’t help. It get too close to a Harrison Bergeron world. Also, we’re getting to the point were we’ll have to choose who to screw. If nothing but self-identification is required in school sports (and would be in higher levels), then no XX human will ever win in 99.9998 of sporting activities. It’s much, much simpler and much, much less controversial to do away with any category in sports (age, weight, sex) and see what happens. ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/166 "2021-07-04T17:11:22Z")
> [@LauderdaleFort](#): > > then no XX human will ever win in 99.9998 of sporting activities. Why should we care if XX girls win? We’ll still have a girl winning? Aren’t XY (and other chromosome types) girls just as much girls as XX girls? If we want girls sports, we should let all girls participate. Or we need to completely re-form sports. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/167 "2021-07-04T17:15:13Z")
> [@HughGoply](#): > > Why should we care if XX girls win? Us humans with XX chromosomes care about having a chance in sports, and so do many parents of the 50% of kids with XX chromosomes. ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/168 "2021-07-04T17:16:48Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Us humans with XX chromosomes care about having a chance in sports, and so do many parents of the 50% of kids with XX chromosomes. Do you acknowledge that girls with XY chromosomes are just as much girls as those girls with XX chromosomes? ---
**Author:** ![LauderdaleFort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/977dab/32.png) [@LauderdaleFort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LauderdaleFort)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/169 "2021-07-04T17:17:59Z")
Then, do away with Male/Female sports. It’s the only way. And then, trans women athletes will also never win. Again, you either screw 99% or 1%. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/170 "2021-07-04T17:21:02Z")
> [@HughGoply](#): > > Do you acknowledge that girls with XY chromosomes are just as much girls as those girls with XX chromosomes? I don’t think it’s relevant. Having XX chromosomes is what largely creates a disadvantage in sports, so it’s people with XX chromosomes who need a protected category, regardless of who is considered a girl or woman. (And we can still allow some people with XY chromosomes to compete in it, but only if they don’t have an unfair advantage due to those XY chromosomes.) ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/171 "2021-07-04T17:26:54Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I don’t think it’s relevant. Having XX chromosomes is what largely creates a disadvantage in sports, so it’s people with XX chromosomes who need a protected category, regardless of who is considered a girl or woman. So every (school) athlete should be chromosome tested? What do we do with people with non XX or XY chromosomes? Should 46,XX Males compete in the XX sports? ---
**Author:** ![LauderdaleFort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/977dab/32.png) [@LauderdaleFort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LauderdaleFort)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/172 "2021-07-04T17:28:05Z")
If the category “_girl_” is “_underage Homo sapiens who say thet are girls_”, then definitely. But then you run into the problem that the same Homo sapiens can say “I’m a boy” for one event and then “I’m a girl” for the next one. There used to be barriers, let’s call them that way, to take away people abusing the system (hormones, appearance, surgery) but (and I’m talking about competitive sports) if it only takes one person saying and that’s it, you can also take out the “real” trans athletes (those who actually feel/know they are the other gender and go through the effort) because they won’t be able to compete with “gaming the system” ones. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/173 "2021-07-04T17:30:14Z")
Oh well, biological differences matter because biological differences are real and no amount of corruption of language will change that. ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/174 "2021-07-04T17:30:59Z")
> [@LauderdaleFort](#): > > If the category “ _girl_ ” is “ _underage Homo sapiens who say thet are girls_ ”, then definitely. But then you run into the problem that the same Homo sapiens can say “I’m a boy” for one event and then “I’m a girl” for the next one. > > There used to be barriers, let’s call them that way, to take away people abusing the system (hormones, appearance, surgery) but (and I’m talking about competitive sports) if it only takes one person saying and that’s it, you can also take out the “real” trans athletes (those who actually feel/know they are the other gender and go through the effort) because they won’t be able to compete with “gaming the system” ones. Can you point to a single instance of a student athlete gaming the system? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/175 "2021-07-04T17:31:29Z")
> [@HughGoply](#): > > So every (school) athlete should be chromosome tested? > > What do we do with people with non XX or XY chromosomes? > > Should 46,XX Males compete in the XX sports? We can iron out the details and enforcement, but the principle should be that sporting categories are based on physical sex differences, not gender identity, because that is what is relevant to sporting performance. ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/176 "2021-07-04T17:32:05Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Oh well, biological differences matter because biological differences are real and no amount of corruption of language will change that. Are you saying it is corruption of the language to acknowledge that trans girls are just as much girls as cis girls? ---
**Author:** ![LauderdaleFort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/977dab/32.png) [@LauderdaleFort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LauderdaleFort)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/177 "2021-07-04T17:33:08Z")
Today and out of the top of my head, no. In your plan, you open the possibility. In mine, it’s virtually impossible. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/178 "2021-07-04T17:34:42Z")
If they were identical sets the words trans and cis would be irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/179 "2021-07-04T17:48:29Z")
That’s a dodge. Are trans girls real girls? (Note that racial groups of girls aren’t identical sets either. We are talking about sub groups. But we don’t see anyone trying to exclude any sub group of girls from school sports other than trans girls.) ---
**Author:** ![HughGoply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hughgoply/32/7834_2.png) [@HughGoply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HughGoply)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/180 "2021-07-04T17:50:29Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > We can iron out the details and enforcement, but the principle should be that sporting categories are based on physical sex differences, not gender identity, because that is what is relevant to sporting performance. This plan will exclude trans girls from girls sports. No other group will be similarly excluded. This plan has the effect (and intent?) of telling trans girls that they are not girls. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/181 "2021-07-04T18:00:53Z")
> [@HughGoply](#): > > Why should we care if XX girls win? Because females are half the population and deserve a fair chance. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447/182 "2021-07-04T18:04:05Z")
It’s far from a dodge. But in Stifled Debates you can only say so much at the best of times so in a thread that has been modded to stay on topic and to interpret that topic very narrowly I feel that going down the definitional rabbit hole in these crazy times is off topic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-trans-girl-athletes-have-an-advantage-moderated-title-for-clarity/945447.md?page=10)