# Do transgender people have an ethical duty to reveal their history before having sex? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638 "2009-04-19T17:47:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638/121 "2009-04-24T16:46:24Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > No, let;'s not say that, as you are arguing, full of ad hominem and straw man attacks. and I am just trying to get to know you. There’s more than one definition of “argument”. One is “debate”. Which you’re doing, incidentally. > [@not\_alice](#): > > Since you seem to think you have never met a homosexual, unless you never go out in public, that is inconceivable. so you think you have answered, fine, I get that and I accept that. But your standard, given your apparent tenuous grasp on reality in thinking you have never met a homosexual, is something we have to take into account when we try to ascertain what you mean. If I’ve gone out in public, it is _inconceivable_ that I’ve never met a transsexual? Bollocks. What nonsense. How common do you think these people _are_? We may just have to agree to disagree about which of us has a tenuous grasp of reality here. 'Cause you’re certainly not going to convince me I do spouting nonsense like this. > [@not\_alice](#): > > You were _made_ to do things. Hmm. Was there a gun at your back? How did she force you kiss her? Do you have free will? > > What other things in life are you _made_ to do? > > Dude, accept a little responsibility for your life! You’re defending fraud, buddy. Outright deliberate fraud. Catch a clue. Though it’s good to know that if I tell you that a road is safe, and you step in a beartrap, the fact that you did is completely your responsibility and I’m completely guiltless. > [@not\_alice](#): > > I see it as bizarre. Like a rape defense in 1940 was being laid out right before my very eyes: “It was the way she was dressed your honor! She made me do it!”. > > 😛 “It’s not my fault I sold them a babies’ teething toy covered with lead-based paint, your honor! Let the buyer beware!” > [@not\_alice](#): > > Oh, so saying you are a homophobe is supposed to be evidence that you will be unlikely to encounter a transexual person? > > Maybe **homophobe** doesn’t mean what you think it means either. It doesn’t mean you avoid homosexuals,which it occurs to me now that you might think that is what it means. > > OK, now I am almost sure it does not mean what you think it means. Given that we were talking about my perception of living in an area that is has an extremely low instance of transexuality, and not my status as a homosexual at all, I can only conclude that your demonstrating your low reading comprehension again. > [@not\_alice](#): > > OK, so if you look it up, you are going of find a darn near consensus that **homophobia** is a subset of bigotry. so if you don’t know or realize that, that might be the source of the confusion between us. > > It does NOT mean “avoids homosexuals”. > > But don’t take my word for it, look it up yourself. First place I checked: [Main Entry: ho·mo·pho·bia Pronunciation: \ˌhō-mə-ˈfō-bē-ə\ Function: noun Date: 1969 : **irrational fear of, aversion to** , or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals — ho·mo·pho·bic -ˈfō-bik\ adjective](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homophobia) Bolding mine. Perhaps you’re having trouble with that rare and complicated word, “or”. There is a splinter group of the human race that believes that it doesn’t mean “and”. > [@not\_alice](#): > > I am not smearing you. I am trying to make sense of what you say, and being darn patient at it too. Iff’n you say so. > [@not\_alice](#): > > Ah, I see. OK, that helps some to understand your life experience a little. thank you! > > See how hard it might be to share something personal, and we are not even intimate. I had to ask many times from many different directions to understand that about you, and it is important I think to know in order to understand your thesis. You asked my age once. I answered immidiately. I’m not sure what version of events you’re experiencing, but it doesn’t appear to be the one in this thread. > [@not\_alice](#): > > I never said it does. From within the [_very same post as this_](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11070661&postcount=111): > [@not\_alice](#): > > OK, so if you look it up, you are going of find a darn near consensus that **homophobia** is a subset of bigotry. so if you don’t know or realize that, that might be the source of the confusion between us. > > It does NOT mean “avoids homosexuals”. > [@not\_alice](#): > > But maybe you should look it up, like I said. You might be in for a surprise. Iff’n you say so… > [@not\_alice](#): > > I thought you said you were answering the questions. Oh trust me, this question had been answered. Repeatedly. > [@not\_alice](#): > > Dude, if for some girl, dating an agoraphobe is out because, well, she will never get to go anyplace with you the way she wants, do you blurt it out to every pretty girl you meet? Or do you leave it up to them to either ask or find out about you over time? > > Because an agoraphobic guy is a pretty rare condition too you know, and it surely affects dating and romance possibilities as much as being TG does, maybe more. You live in a strange and foreign reality. Because I don’t believe for one _instant_ that agoraphobia is a probable deal-breaker, I’m not committing fraud by failing to mention it. You do realize that argument by analogy works a lot better when the situations are actually analogous, right? And no, I don’t beleive in the existence of transsexuals who aren’t aware that their status is a probable deal-breaker - at least not in _these_ parts. > [@not\_alice](#): > > so in one breath you slam me for a missed quote ta, and in the next you gloss over your own typo that changed the meaning of the sentence? 😕 My remark was a slam? I thought it was an explanation of why I wasn’t responding to it as a comment of yours (like I did with the prior time you did it). You’ve done it again two times in this post alone. In the future I will simply not respond to instances where I believe you have made this error; If I ignore something that actually in fact _was_ meant to be clever parody, let me know. > [@not\_alice](#): > > Well, you asserted you are not, the world is full of explicit counter examples, many rotting away in jail, and they were all similar to you in their trials they said they never would do this stuff before, they were made to do it, etc. > > and since you don’t even know any homosexuals, how can you know how you will act? > > You can avoid the question if you want, but it is a fair one. Man up and say I don’t really know never having been in the position, that is a fine answer. Itis true for most people. And most people, having been in that position, will be fine and manage gracefully. > > But if you look at guys who, inadvertently got into that position and split into 2 groups, homophobes and non-homophobes, I think you would find more homophobes among the ones who ended up on trial. > > That you said you would literally run or make her leave your place quickly, instead of winding things down gracefully raises my eyebrow. It is not proof of anything, but it is a red flag. Just saying you might want to consider that one night when you are calm, relaxed, tired and about to go to sleep, just you and the pillow. > > Odds are, you are fine. But, well, wow. Not WOW, just wow. I give up. Dude, I would _totally_ kill them. With my teeth. I am a frenzied Pac-man and the transgendered are my pac-pellets. Wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka… > [@not\_alice](#): > > Are there people with 3 arms? Or are we discussing people who really do exst despite your assertino you never met them and the ones with sense have left your state due to the other guys who are bigots if they know what is good for them? Stop dodging the question - if you _did_ meet one, would you kill it? With your teeth? Wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka… > [@not\_alice](#): > > OK, now I know tht homophobia doesn’t mean what you think it means. > > I know this is your reality, but it is not what it means in the world. > > Let me just say briefly, I don’t know if you are getting help for your agoraphobia, but if and when you do, you might consider asking them about this “homophobia” too. Yeah, like _you_ know what the concensus about it is. Clearly an expert, you are. > [@not\_alice](#): > > These are good topics for another discussion, but would only hijack this one. Feel free to start another thread sometime. So much for “I am just trying to get to know you”, eh? Oh well, I already knew you weren’t interested in fighting your ignorance. And of course it’s not relevent to the topic - it simply doesn’t matter _why_ a given person might not want to become intimate with a transsexual. The mere fact that a person doesn’t want to do it makes it unethical for a person to get them to do it via the withholding of information. If I know a person doesn’t want to eat pork, it doesn’t matter _why_ they don’t want to eat pork; it’s still unethical for me to give them a ham sandwhich when they asked me for a chicken one. > [@not\_alice](#): > > Yeah, I know you can;'t help it. Because you are attributing things to me that I didn’t say or even hint at. I never said you are violent or suggested it. I asked, and now I see, with very good reason, for you to explain yourself because your word usage seemed “off” to me from the beginning. The irony! It burns! > [@not\_alice](#): > > I live in such an area too. > > Can you imagine why a tg (who is not necessarily homosexual any more then you or I are) might not want to blurt that out to every guy that shows an interest? Ah a salient point, grounded in actual _real_ reality. Of _course_ a transgendered (or homosexual) person would want to refrain from slapping a sign saying “I’m not a vanilla hetero normal - beat me up!” But it’s not that hard to turn the topic to gays without you admitting _you_ are gay - you can just say, “Hey, what do you think of that gay marriage thing going on in california”? That should be more than sufficient to extract the information you need to determine whether it’s safe to continue, or whether you should gracefully retreat. > [@not\_alice](#): > > Who said anything about “self hating closet homosexuals”? Why do you bring it up? Because…you asked about it? When you write things, do you immidiately forget that you wrote them? And ignore the fact that your own text is quoted right above my response? > [@not\_alice](#): > > And given the prevalence of violent anti-gay men in the region you just described and your willingness to get involved romantically with them compared to others, how are they supposed to discern that you are not in fact interested, and that while you are not violent, you are homophobic too just the same? I can’t apply referents to the ‘thems’ and ‘theys’ in this in \*any combination that makes a lick of sense. I am neither willing to get romantically involved with transsexuals, homosexuals, _or_ violent anti-gay me. > [@not\_alice](#): > > Given your tongue in her mouth kissing in your apartment, why on earth would she think you don’t like her? > > How would they know precisely if you haven’t told them? > > Have you ever HAD a relationship? The way she would know that I don’t like her is that if she wasn’t a defrauding manipulative bitch (or _spectacularly_ stupid), she wouldn’t have let it get to that point. Which means the situation simply wouldn’t come up. > [@not\_alice](#): > > I hope you are just being funny. Otherwise I am this close to reconsidering my “won’t turn violent” feeling about you. > > And sometimes there are _applicable_ counterexamples. Putting aside your dramatic show of low reading comprehension, it’s going to be pretty hard for you to “reconsider” your “won’t turn violent” feeling about me, since you clearly have never abandoned the idea in the first place. > [@not\_alice](#): > > But given you know you have an irrational fear, is it possible that is just your fear trying to make itself seem rational? > > It might see rational to you, but to us out here, it is looking increasingly hinky. don’t shoot me, I am just the messenger. Nope. There’s no logical connection between my preferences and the fact that other people shouldn’t deliberately and fraudulently lead people into acting against their preferences. Who do you think “us out here” is, by the way? Everyone but me? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638/122 "2009-04-24T17:19:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think I raised the married person analogy first, and I still think it’s a pretty good analogy. THe problem here is one of fraud.[…] > The key elements here are: > > 1. Voluntary transaction. > 2. Party A knows a fact. > 3. Party A suspects that Party B would not engage in the tranaction if Party B knew that fact. > 4. Party A fails to disclose this fact. > > I think that _prima facie_, any time these four conditions are met, you’ve got unethical behavior on the part of Party A. I think you’re missing a 3A)Party A has reason to believe Party B would suffer\* real harm\* through engaging in the transaction without first finding out. Or, to put it another way, I don’t think it’s valid use of ethics to be worrying about someone’s _hurt feelings_ post-voluntary-transaction. Or, in other words, I think _Caveat emptor_ would apply. Now, it would be unethical to lie about it if asked, but you know, even then, I don’t really care. Go, T-Gs, I say. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638/123 "2009-04-24T17:21:41Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I think you’re missing a > 3A)Party A has reason to believe Party B would suffer\* real harm\* through engaging in the transaction without first finding out. > > Or, to put it another way, I don’t think it’s valid use of ethics to be worrying about someone’s _hurt feelings_ post-voluntary-transaction. Or, in other words, I think _Caveat emptor_ would apply. > > Now, it would be unethical to lie about it if asked, but you know, even then, I don’t really care. Go, T-Gs, I say. There’s no real harm in tricking somebody into helping you to commit adultery, or tricking jews into eating pork, or tricking christians into worshipping satan (the last, actually, would be a pretty good trick, if accomplished). So is it ethical to do all those things too? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638/124 "2009-04-24T17:23:02Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Transgendered people have no similarly easy way to rid themselves of the stigma of being transgendered. With the exception of transsexuals, would transgendered individuals of any sexual orientation have any greater difficulty finding a partner without deception or face any greater stigma than a homosexual would? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638/125 "2009-04-24T17:28:28Z")
Dude, this is getting so far off topic I can only read part way through it before closing interest. But at that point I was reminded of a thread a couple of weeks ago - on Doper had attempted suicide for the 15th time in 2 years or so, and was in the hospital, her father, also a doper, informed us. When she was out of the hospital , she came to the thread to report all was rosy and peachy keen. I suggested that she might not be as healthy as she thinks she is, and that she should share what she wrote on the dope with her therapist (which she said she did have) rather than expect universal acceptance on the Dope that drinking antifreeze 15 times was no big deal or something. That thread exploded to the point that it had to be closed. A Pit debate ensued, and that actually was closed and deleted. I don’t have the time or interest to go through that again right now. But my suggestion to you is the same as it was to her - your writings are not coming off as rational, you admitted to some mental health issues (agoraphobia at the very least), treatment is available (without medicine!) and if you are not receiving it I strongly recommend you talk to a therapist for an evaluation which could lead to a better life, and if you are in such therapy, I suggest you share your writings in this thread with him or her (and mine too if you think it will help). If money is a factor, be aware that there are free and low cost/sliding scale services available everywhere. Beyond that, I am not finding your train of thought to be coherent. I appreciate you have made your point, we can agree to disagree at this point, but please, please, please, do what you can to improve your health. I will be rooting for you! > [@begbert2](#): > > There’s more than one definition of “argument”. One is “debate”. Which you’re doing, incidentally. > > If I’ve gone out in public, it is _inconceivable_ that I’ve never met a transsexual? Bollocks. What nonsense. How common do you think these people _are_? > > We may just have to agree to disagree about which of us has a tenuous grasp of reality here. 'Cause you’re certainly not going to convince me I do spouting nonsense like this. > You’re defending fraud, buddy. Outright deliberate fraud. Catch a clue. > > Though it’s good to know that if I tell you that a road is safe, and you step in a beartrap, the fact that you did is completely your responsibility and I’m completely guiltless. > “It’s not my fault I sold them a babies’ teething toy covered with lead-based paint, your honor! Let the buyer beware!” > Given that we were talking about my perception of living in an area that is has an extremely low instance of transexuality, and not my status as a homosexual at all, I can only conclude that your demonstrating your low reading comprehension again. > First place I checked: > [Main Entry: ho·mo·pho·bia > Pronunciation: \ˌhō-mə-ˈfō-bē-ə\ > Function: noun > Date: 1969 > : **irrational fear of, aversion to** , or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals > — ho·mo·pho·bic -ˈfō-bik\ adjective](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homophobia) > Bolding mine. > > Perhaps you’re having trouble with that rare and complicated word, “or”. There is a splinter group of the human race that believes that it doesn’t mean “and”. > > Iff’n you say so. > > You asked my age once. I answered immidiately. > > I’m not sure what version of events you’re experiencing, but it doesn’t appear to be the one in this thread. > > From within the [_very same post as this_](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11070661&postcount=111): > > Iff’n you say so… > Oh trust me, this question had been answered. Repeatedly. > > You live in a strange and foreign reality. > > Because I don’t believe for one _instant_ that agoraphobia is a probable deal-breaker, I’m not committing fraud by failing to mention it. You do realize that argument by analogy works a lot better when the situations are actually analogous, right? > > And no, I don’t beleive in the existence of transsexuals who aren’t aware that their status is a probable deal-breaker - at least not in _these_ parts. > > My remark was a slam? I thought it was an explanation of why I wasn’t responding to it as a comment of yours (like I did with the prior time you did it). > > You’ve done it again two times in this post alone. In the future I will simply not respond to instances where I believe you have made this error; If I ignore something that actually in fact _was_ meant to be clever parody, let me know. > > I give up. > > Dude, I would _totally_ kill them. With my teeth. I am a frenzied Pac-man and the transgendered are my pac-pellets. Wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka… > Stop dodging the question - if you _did_ meet one, would you kill it? With your teeth? Wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka-wokka… > Yeah, like _you_ know what the concensus about it is. Clearly an expert, you are. > > So much for “I am just trying to get to know you”, eh? Oh well, I already knew you weren’t interested in fighting your ignorance. > > And of course it’s not relevent to the topic - it simply doesn’t matter _why_ a given person might not want to become intimate with a transsexual. The mere fact that a person doesn’t want to do it makes it unethical for a person to get them to do it via the withholding of information. > > If I know a person doesn’t want to eat pork, it doesn’t matter _why_ they don’t want to eat pork; it’s still unethical for me to give them a ham sandwhich when they asked me for a chicken one. > The irony! It burns! > Ah a salient point, grounded in actual _real_ reality. > > Of _course_ a transgendered (or homosexual) person would want to refrain from slapping a sign saying “I’m not a vanilla hetero normal - beat me up!” But it’s not that hard to turn the topic to gays without you admitting _you_ are gay - you can just say, “Hey, what do you think of that gay marriage thing going on in california”? That should be more than sufficient to extract the information you need to determine whether it’s safe to continue, or whether you should gracefully retreat. > Because…you asked about it? > > When you write things, do you immidiately forget that you wrote them? And ignore the fact that your own text is quoted right above my response? > I can’t apply referents to the ‘thems’ and ‘theys’ in this in \*any combination that makes a lick of sense. I am neither willing to get romantically involved with transsexuals, homosexuals, _or_ violent anti-gay me. > > The way she would know that I don’t like her is that if she wasn’t a defrauding manipulative bitch (or _spectacularly_ stupid), she wouldn’t have let it get to that point. Which means the situation simply wouldn’t come up. > > Putting aside your dramatic show of low reading comprehension, it’s going to be pretty hard for you to “reconsider” your “won’t turn violent” feeling about me, since you clearly have never abandoned the idea in the first place. > > Nope. There’s no logical connection between my preferences and the fact that other people shouldn’t deliberately and fraudulently lead people into acting against their preferences. > > Who do you think “us out here” is, by the way? Everyone but me? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638/126 "2009-04-24T17:38:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it doesn’t. > > It means “someone who does the marenga with a Golden Retriever while wearing jewelry made from my grandmother’s kidney stones”. > > What are you, some kind of homophobe? > > Regards, > Shodan Are you denying that men can be XXY, XXYY (etc) as well as XY? [Here’s one link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter%27s_syndrome), but that’s only to XXY. [Here’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYY_syndrome) XYY. The others all exist too. Male is not just XY and most men who differ from XY do not present as intersexed. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638/127 "2009-04-24T17:40:33Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > This is not related to teh OP, even if you think it is cute. It was related to **scifisam2009** ’s post. Which is why I quoted **scifisam2009** ’s post. Try to keep up. > [@](#): > > In any question of the form “Is X \*\*ethically obligated \*\*to Y in situation Z” > , then if you posit the answer is “yes”, and you want to persuade people itis true rather then a baseless opinion, then you need to present: > > 1 - evidence of an ethical code > 2 - evidence that Y is bound to that ethical code in situation Z Produce evidence that the above is true rather than a baseless opinion. > [@Lamia](#): > > First, people choose to be married, and if they don’t like the way that being married puts a damper on their other romantic prospects then they can choose to get a divorce. Well, people choose whether or not to get sex reassignment surgery, don’t they? Although I grant you, it is much harder to back out of if you change your mind than a simple divorce. > [@](#): > > There is no longer any great social stigma involved in being divorced, and I doubt anyone here would say that divorcees have a responsibility to warn their sexual partners first. That’s probably why - because most people have no objections to sex with a divorced person. With a transgendered one? I expect the percentages to be a good bit higher. > [@](#): > > Transgendered people have no similarly easy way to rid themselves of the stigma of being transgendered. Again, that is sort of the point - there is no easy way to overcome the objections of those whose preference is confined solely to those born and remaining with XX chromosomes and an innie rather than an outie. > [@](#): > > Second, the reason why most single people wouldn’t want to sleep with a married person is because doing so would hurt an innocent third party – the married person’s spouse. There is nothing comparable involved in having sex with a transgendered person. Hold your horses there - I thought the premise was that no one got to tell anyone else whether or not their preferences were valid. It doesn’t hurt anyone **not** to have sex with a transgendered person either. So I think the default should be that everyone gets to make up his or her (or whatever) own mind, and with all the reasonably available facts at their disposal beforehand. And I don’t think something as very nearly universal as the desire to confine your amorous activities to the ones available for a couple of hundred thousand years before we had sophisticated surgery and artificial hormones is anything unreasonable. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638/128 "2009-04-24T17:40:39Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > With the exception of transsexuals, would transgendered individuals of any sexual orientation have any greater difficulty finding a partner without deception or face any greater stigma than a homosexual would? I’m not sure what question makes sense, asking a question about transgendered individuals _excepting_ transexuals. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638/129 "2009-04-24T17:41:35Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Dude, this is getting so far off topic I can only read part way through it before closing interest. > > But at that point I was reminded of a thread a couple of weeks ago - on Doper had attempted suicide for the 15th time in 2 years or so, and was in the hospital, her father, also a doper, informed us. > > When she was out of the hospital , she came to the thread to report all was rosy and peachy keen. > > I suggested that she might not be as healthy as she thinks she is, and that she should share what she wrote on the dope with her therapist (which she said she did have) rather than expect universal acceptance on the Dope that drinking antifreeze 15 times was no big deal or something. > > That thread exploded to the point that it had to be closed. A Pit debate ensued, and that actually was closed and deleted. > > I don’t have the time or interest to go through that again right now. > > But my suggestion to you is the same as it was to her - your writings are not coming off as rational, you admitted to some mental health issues (agoraphobia at the very least), treatment is available (without medicine!) and if you are not receiving it I strongly recommend you talk to a therapist for an evaluation which could lead to a better life, and if you are in such therapy, I suggest you share your writings in this thread with him or her (and mine too if you think it will help). > > If money is a factor, be aware that there are free and low cost/sliding scale services available everywhere. > > Beyond that, I am not finding your train of thought to be coherent. I appreciate you have made your point, we can agree to disagree at this point, but please, please, please, do what you can to improve your health. I will be rooting for you! Whatever, dude. The only person piling on me here is _you_. By my reckonging, that’s because only in your little mental world can my words be interpreted as irrational. (And the odds seem good that the demonstrated limited extent of your ability to comprehend my words may be a causative factor there.) I don’t see much point in seeking help for mental disorders that by all available evidence only exist in one (other) guy’s imagination. But don’t worry, I wasn’t planning to put you through a pitting. I don’t do that to people, regardless of _how_ they argue or what they say and/or imply about me. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638/130 "2009-04-24T17:50:44Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Are you denying that men can be XXY, XXYY (etc) as well as XY? I am saying that language is a social contract. If someone asks a prospective boink partner “are you a man?”, it is usually dishonest to pretend you don’t know exactly what he means and start playing word games. M’kay? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![filling\_pages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9bd4f/32.png) [@filling\_pages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filling_pages)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638/131 "2009-04-24T17:57:00Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > I’m not sure what question makes sense, asking a question about transgendered individuals _excepting_ transexuals. There are many people who consider themselves transgendered because they do not fit into society’s gender roles. Drag queens and kings, stone butch women, “genderqueer” people - any and all of these may consider themselves transgendered. Transsexual people feel that their brain gender does not match their body gender and usually take steps (medical, cultural) to bring the body in line with the brain. Many transsexual people, once transitioned, consider it part of their medical history but not a pressing part of their everyday life. Transgender is an umbrella term, and many transsexuals do not apply it to themselves. This thread seems mostly to be about transsexual people (primarily transsexual women, of course - phantom penises are scarier than phantom breasts), but the issue gets confused by mainstream media’s current preference for “transgender” rather than a more specific term. Which leads me around to saying that transgendered people may or may not have a harder time finding dates than a non-trans gay person, depending on what puts them under the transgender umbrella and who they’re hot in the pants for. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638/132 "2009-04-24T17:59:13Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > I’m not sure what question makes sense, asking a question about transgendered individuals _excepting_ transexuals. I am suggesting that there are two different stigmas involved, one that is a stigma against transsexuals, and one that is a stigma against anyone who doesn’t comply with traditional gender roles, transsexuals and non-transsexuals alike. Do you get what I mean? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638/133 "2009-04-24T18:15:31Z")
@Shodan: you said a man was XY. I pointed out that this is not always the case. Language is a social construct, and gender is socially defined, but ‘man’ definitely does not always mean XY, not by any definition. > [@filling\_pages](#): > > There are many people who consider themselves transgendered because they do not fit into society’s gender roles. Drag queens and kings, stone butch women, “genderqueer” people - any and all of these may consider themselves transgendered. > > Transsexual people feel that their brain gender does not match their body gender and usually take steps (medical, cultural) to bring the body in line with the brain. Many transsexual people, once transitioned, consider it part of their medical history but not a pressing part of their everyday life. > > Transgender is an umbrella term, and many transsexuals do not apply it to themselves. This thread seems mostly to be about transsexual people (primarily transsexual women, of course - phantom penises are scarier than phantom breasts), but the issue gets confused by mainstream media’s current preference for “transgender” rather than a more specific term. > > Which leads me around to saying that transgendered people may or may not have a harder time finding dates than a non-trans gay person, depending on what puts them under the transgender umbrella and who they’re hot in the pants for. TBH, IME, drag kings and queens, butch dykes and and other genderqueer people don’t apply the word transgender to themselves. The collective label is simply trans (but most drag kings and queens wouldn’t consider themselves trans either - it’s just play. They’re not uncertain about their own gender). This could, possibly, be a UK/US difference. You and Grumman seem to be asking the same question, but I’m still not quite sure what it is, sorry. Is it ‘do people who don’t conform to gender stereotypes (but aren’t transexual - pre- or post-op) find it harder to get dates?’ Or is it ‘do transexuals - pre- or post-op find it harder to get dates?’ ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638/134 "2009-04-24T18:38:25Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Second, the reason why most single people wouldn’t want to sleep with a married person is because doing so would hurt an innocent third party – the married person’s spouse. There is nothing comparable involved in having sex with a transgendered person. I’m not sure about this. I have friends in open relationships - works great for them. But I’m not comfortable about it for me. Maybe I’m unusual in that the reason I’m not sleeping with my married friends is because its a tenet of my own comfort level, and not because I’m worried about hurting their spouses or mine. But I suspect that I’m not really that unusual - or open relationships would be far more common. Let’s say you are having a dinner party. You make a bean soup. You use chicken stock - although many bean soups are made completely meatless. You live in a place like Boulder, Colorado, where it is pretty common to be vegetarian. Should you, or should you not, disclose the chicken stock in the soup? ---
**Author:** ![filling\_pages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9bd4f/32.png) [@filling\_pages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filling_pages)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638/135 "2009-04-24T18:46:59Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > TBH, IME, drag kings and queens, butch dykes and and other genderqueer people don’t apply the word transgender to themselves. The collective label is simply trans (but most drag kings and queens wouldn’t consider themselves trans either - it’s just play. They’re not uncertain about their own gender). This could, possibly, be a UK/US difference. Probably a US/UK difference. “Transgendered” is just the longer form of “trans” in this case. It doesn’t necessarily carry the connotation of being uncertain about their gender at all - although they may be. Just that they have a different gender expression from the norm. And like I said, transgendered certainly isn’t used by all people that might be shoved under its umbrella. > [@scifisam2009](#): > > You and Grumman seem to be asking the same question, but I’m still not quite sure what it is, sorry. Is it ‘do people who don’t conform to gender stereotypes (but aren’t transexual - pre- or post-op) find it harder to get dates?’ Or is it ‘do transexuals - pre- or post-op find it harder to get dates?’ I wasn’t asking a question at all. I was clarifying what I saw as Grumman’s question and giving the answer as far as I know: _Which leads me around to saying that transgendered people may or may not have a harder time finding dates than a non-trans gay person, depending on what puts them under the transgender umbrella and who they’re hot in the pants for._ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638/136 "2009-04-24T19:02:30Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > @Shodan: you said a man was XY. I pointed out that this is not always the case. Language is a social construct, and gender is socially defined, but ‘man’ definitely does not always mean XY, not by any definition.’ Like I pointed out, it means “people who dance with Rover”. Prove otherwise. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638/137 "2009-04-24T19:09:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Like I pointed out, it means “people who dance with Rover”. Prove otherwise. > > Regards, > Shodan Is this making sense to anyone else? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638/138 "2009-04-24T20:20:59Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Is this making sense to anyone else? He’s saying that he thinks that the accepted definition of “man” includes only the ‘standard’ XY combination, and unusual genetic variations from the norm would not be accepted within that defintion. From there he is implying that if you can alter the definition to _include_ such variants, he can just as validly alter it to mean any crazy thing he wants. Myself, I think that different people define different words differently, and that in this situation, it is the definition held by the person whose preferences might be at risk of being fraudulently violated which matters (with regard to the violation or risk thereof, anyway). If people are using different definitions this is going to make communication and clarification harder…but that doesn’t take the onus off the one who is aware of the potentially problematic situation to make certain it’s not a problem. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638/139 "2009-04-24T20:45:46Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Myself, I think that different people define different words differently, and that in this situation, it is the definition held by the person whose preferences might be at risk of being fraudulently violated which matters (with regard to the violation or risk thereof, anyway). If people are using different definitions this is going to make communication and clarification harder…but that doesn’t take the onus off the one who is aware of the potentially problematic situation to make certain it’s not a problem. Don’t you see how contradictory and ridiculous that is? You say: You can use whatever definition you want and have the imagination to make up, but you meet me and it is _my_ responsibility to know what you think while _you_ romance me and then, when I turn out to not be to your liking, it is my fault I wasn’t inside your head? I know you said you were answering my questions, and maybe I missed one - did you ever answer whether or not you have ever been in a relationship? Have you ever even had a date? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638/140 "2009-04-24T20:57:30Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Is this making sense to anyone else? No, but frankly, most of this thread isn’t registering in the “makes rational sense even if I disagree” category either. I suspect we are going to go down further into the rabbit hole in search of rationalizations of non-rational positions too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-have-an-ethical-duty-to-reveal-their-history-before-having-sex/493638.md?page=8)