# Do transgender people see themselves as "gay" or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2002, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251 "2002-06-03T22:49:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251/1 "2002-06-03T22:49:42Z")
In their own view of themselves do transgender (ed/ing) men place themselves in the “gay men who want to be more feminine or enjoy imagining being women” camp, or is it a different context entirely where there is no male gender identification (gay or otherwise) _whatsoever_, and they see themselves as essentially and utterly female in their emotional and mental landscape but trapped in an alien male body? As a tangential question do post op transgendered men find they are accepted by gay women as “sisters” (even though the sexual orientations differ) or do gay women still view them as “men”. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251/2 "2002-06-03T22:56:50Z")
why is this a debate, vs. a poll? IOW - to me, I wouldn’t begin to attempt to answer, since I’m not a transgendered person. And, from those I’ve met, their answers wouldn’t necessarily be the same for each person. ---
**Author:** ![Netbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71e660/32.png) [@Netbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Netbrian)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251/3 "2002-06-03T22:57:48Z")
I think it both depends on the person… Some transgendered people will view themselves as homosexual if they like other people of the gender they actually feel. Others will feel themselves as simply a heterosexual of the opposite gender. It really does depend on the person. And I can’t answer the second at all. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251/4 "2002-06-03T23:15:13Z")
I don’t see the question; it’s more like asking “do Lesbian women see themselves as black?” – which is of course answered by saying that those of Congoid (i.e., “African” in a quasi-racial sense) do and the others do not. “Gay” refers to _sexual orientation_ – i.e., to whom one is sexually and romantically attracted, given their phenotypic gender vis-a-vis one’s own. “Transgender(ed)” refers to _sexual identity_ – i.e., never mind what I’ve got on my chest or between my legs, am I _really_ a man or a woman _inside_, in my sense of who I am, where it really counts? Some transgendered people conceive of themselves as a man (unfortunately living in a woman’s body) attracted to other men, or a woman (in a man’s body) attracted to other women, and are therefore gay; others as conceive of themselves as being of the opposite sex as their body type would suggest but attracted to people of the opposite sex from what they feel themselves to be, and would therefore consider themselves straight – but notice that a third-party observer would make the exact opposite diagnosis of gayness/straightness from the transgendered person. (This is presupposing prior to sexual reassignment surgery, and ignoring what state law says that they “really” are under the law.) Note further that there is a commonalty of interest between the transgendered and gay communities, in that each is often discriminated against and misunderstood by the uninformed straight majority. This is the main reason for the T in the GBLTA activist organizations – “we must all hang together, or we shall assuredly be hung separately” - B. Franklin. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251/5 "2002-06-04T00:52:52Z")
There was a fascinating documentary called **Southern Comfort** on HBO a few months ago. It was about a f-t-m trannsexual who was dying of ovarian cancer. (Nobody would treat him because it would “embarass the other patients.”) Anywho, he said he hid in the gay community and had a “lesbian lover” for 10 years before he finally admitted to his friends and family that he was really a man, _not_ simply a lesbian woman. He ultimately fell in love with a m-t-f trannsexual. I would say neither are gay. Of course there are some transgendered people who, after the change, are attracted to the same sex. (ie f-t-m who still dates men.) These people, I would say, are gay, but only by virtue of sleeping with the same sex post-op. Of course, I’m neither gay nor transexual, so what do I know? This is just the impression I got, and if I am indeed mistaken in some (all) cases, I do apologize. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251/6 "2002-06-04T00:58:49Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\* Some transgendered people conceive of themselves as a man (unfortunately living in a woman’s body) attracted to other men, or a woman (in a man’s body) attracted to other women, and are therefore gay; others as conceive of themselves as being of the opposite sex as their body type would suggest but attracted to people of the opposite sex from what they feel themselves to be, and would therefore consider themselves straight – but notice that a third-party observer would make the exact opposite diagnosis of gayness/straightness from the transgendered person. (This is presupposing prior to sexual reassignment surgery, and ignoring what state law says that they “really” are under the law.)_\* I’m taking you seriously and I’m trying to follow this. There are men (physically) who feel they are women (mentally) but who are attracted to women sexually, so they are essentially _lesbians_ trapped in a man’s body? This sounds like an old joke. ---
**Author:** ![Netbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71e660/32.png) [@Netbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Netbrian)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251/7 "2002-06-04T01:20:30Z")
What is the problem you see with that Astro? As Polycarp pointed out, sexual orientation and sexual identity are two seperate things. People can be anywhere across the spectrum of several dimensions. For instance, there are the highly masculine homosexuals, most definately male, but with a different sexual orientation than normal. Then there are the highly feminine homo and heterosexual males (as well as bisexual), that may not consider themselves a women, but act quite feminine, and may even cross-dress. Then there are transgendered people, and that’s simply another dimension of this whole meter. Some of them will be straight people of a different gender, and some are capable of being homosexual or bisexual people of the other gender. The fallacy here is trying to group these two characteristics together, it simply doesn’t work that way. Someone can truly feel that they are a male inside, and yet be attracted to males despite their physical and mental gender. There are no barriers to this, and no reason whatsoever to view these people as being any less “real” than transgendered people whom are attracted to the gender opposite of what they truly are. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251/8 "2002-06-04T01:41:56Z")
pepperlandgirl wrote: > [@](#): > > It was about a f-t-m trannsexual who was dying of ovarian cancer. (Nobody would treat him because it would “embarass the other patients.”) “I’m sorry, but we can’t remove your tumor. It would be too embarrassing.” Huh?! 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251/9 "2002-06-04T04:18:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*pepperlandgirl wrote: > > > [@](#): > > > > It was about a f-t-m trannsexual who was dying of ovarian cancer. (Nobody would treat him because it would “embarass the other patients.”) > > “I’m sorry, but we can’t remove your tumor. It would be too embarrassing.” > > Huh?! 😕 \*\* Me too. Why would other patients even know what he was being treated for? Medical records are (supposed to be) confidential. Besides, I can’t imagine that the AMA and/or various government authorities would be too pleased with this idea… ?? ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251/10 "2002-06-04T05:24:05Z")
I teach a medical school Human Sexuality elective, and we have a TS/TG panel. They now prefer the term “intersex,” which is somewhat more accurate. Just as there is a continuum of sexual orientation, there is a continuum of gender identification. This includes people who identify very strongly with their gender at one end, to cross-dressers slightly off of that (IIRC most cross-dressers are completely heterosexual) to transsexuals somewhere in the middle to true intersex in the middle (identify with no gender) to transgendered at the other end (identify with the other gender). ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251/11 "2002-06-04T05:36:10Z")
> [@](#): > > pepperlandgirl wrote: > > ## quote: > > ## It was about a f-t-m trannsexual who was dying of ovarian cancer. (Nobody would treat him because it would “embarass the other patients.”) > > “I’m sorry, but we can’t remove your tumor. It would be too embarrassing.” > > Huh?! He didn’t want the tumor removed, he wanted an entire hysterectomy done. He explained that there no doctors willing to perform this operation. As he died a horribly painful death less than a year after his diagnosis, and as he left behind the love of his life, friends, two sons, and a grandchild, I’m inclined to believe that he exhausted his means. They discuss this in the documentary, and I’ll pull it out and rewatch it, but I’m pretty sure the resounding reason was “It would be too embarassing for our other clients.” Who says bigotry has to make sense? > [@](#): > > I’m taking you seriously and I’m trying to follow this. There are men (physically) who feel they are women (mentally) but who are attracted to women sexually, so they are essentially lesbians trapped in a man’s body? This sounds like an old joke. It may sound like an old joke, but it most certainly is not. I can’t speak to how common this is, but there are people who “lesbians trapped in men’s bodies.” ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251/12 "2002-06-04T15:40:45Z")
Not much to add here, really, as Pepperlandgirl, Netbrian and Polycarp have put it pretty succinctly. “Who you are” and “who you’re attracted to” are two entirely different matters. If you’re not sexually attracted to anyone, do you not exist? If you’re bisexual, are you a hermaphrodite? 'Course not. If I were a lesbian, it wouldn’t make me any less of a woman. I suspect—and this is entirely guesswork—that there is more bisexuality and homosexuality in the transgendered community simply because we have been forced to closely examine and think about our sexuality in a way others have not. To answer the OP, I _always_ thought of myself as being female. As for the causes, my mother was given DES in her seventh week of pregnancy, and that’s pretty well been proven to play ducks and drakes with one’s brain chemistry and hypothalamus—though that may not be the _only_ cause; not enough study has been done. ---
**Author:** ![Netbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71e660/32.png) [@Netbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Netbrian)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251/13 "2002-06-04T16:10:09Z")
(Slight Tangent) **edwino** , I was always under the impression that intersex was the term for people who physically were both genders somehow… When did this terminology change? Or did it just enter common usage in a different way? (End Tangent) ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251/14 "2002-06-04T19:11:50Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m taking you seriously and I’m trying to follow this. There are men (physically) who feel they are women (mentally) but who are attracted to women sexually, so they are essentially lesbians trapped in a man’s body? This sounds like an old joke. No joke. I have a friend who is in this same situation he (becoming she) has been dressing as a woman for a few years and just started on hormones last month. He married a perfectly ordinary woman a year and a half ago. Of course, he’s effectively making her a lesbian, too … Boy, sometimes I’m really glad my life is so nice and boring. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251/15 "2002-06-05T00:42:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astro \* > **In their own view of themselves do transgender (ed/ing) men place themselves in the “gay men who want to be more feminine or enjoy imagining being women” camp, or is it a different context entirely where there is no male gender identification (gay or otherwise) _whatsoever_, and they see themselves as essentially and utterly female in their emotional and mental landscape but trapped in an alien male body?** Well, it depends. If by “transgendered men” you really mean male-to-female transsexuals, then it’s the latter: there is no male gender identification; male-to-female transsexuals identify as female. A MTF transsexual is gay if and only if she is a lesbian. On the other hand, if you mean persons of male sex who are transgendered but not transsexual, then you will get all sorts of different answers. On the third hand (warnings: aliens in the building), if you mean female-to-male transsexuals (which is what I would normally take “transgendered man” to mean), the question really make no sense at all. > [@](#): > > \*\*As a tangential question do post op transgendered men find they are accepted by gay women as “sisters” (even though the sexual orientations differ) or do gay women still view them as “men”. \*\* Again, if you’re referring to post-op male-to-female transsexuals (which is what would normally be referred to a “transsexual woman”), the answer is “not generally”. Far too many lesbians are prejudiced against transsexuals, even those who are also lesbians. If you’re referring to post-op female-to-male transsexuals, you would expect to find little acceptance from lesbians since such individuals are male. However, there are apparently quite a few women out there who claim to be both lesbians and in sexual relationship with female-to-male transsexuals. So who the hell knows? I don’t understand lesbians. To answer your more general question (and skirting your ignorance of proper terminology), the answer is “only if they’re also gay”. Transsexualism has **nothing at all** with sexual preference. BTW, **edwino** , whoever told you that transsexuals prefer to be called intersexuals was an ignorant idiot. Intersexuality is a completely different thing. An intersexual is an individual whose genetics are neither XX nor XY, or whose genitalia do not match their chromosonal sex. Transsexuals have normal genetics (as far as we know) and normal genitalia for their chromosonal sex. **astro** , yes, it’s a bad joke, and it makes life as a transsexual lesbian especially annoying. ---
**Author:** ![zen101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c68b51/32.png) [@zen101](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zen101)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251/16 "2002-06-05T01:41:02Z")
[hijac] A little OT, but in a related vein I was wondering how heterosexual transvestites are regarded generally within the gay community. I used to frequent a drag club/cabaret and there were some men who came in who claimed to be hetero, and there is the Ed Wood deal (he was purportedly a transvestite in r/l, but dod not engage in hoimosexual activity). I’m not currently friends with any gay people to ask, so I thought I would ask it here. [/hijac] ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251/17 "2002-06-05T03:19:34Z")
I don’t know that I have anything to add. But, I’ve always found this a fascinating suject. I reccommend the book Body Alchemy ---
**Author:** ![Netbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71e660/32.png) [@Netbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Netbrian)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251/18 "2002-06-05T03:41:44Z")
**zen101** , from what I’ve seen, the reaction of the homosexual community to such people tends to be fairly close to how the heterosexual community views them. Some will simply accept what they say, and decide that if they lie, it really is their own buisness. Some will wonder if they’re closeted transgendered people or homosexual people, no matter what their outward sexuality may be. Some will view that they give X community a bad name, and without them, more steps would be taken. As with heterosexuals, it really depends on the specific people involved. ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251/19 "2002-06-05T23:53:24Z")
OK, I defer to the experts. Sorry. But I swear, we had the panel entitled TG/TS panel and they mentioned to us that “Intersex Panel” would be less cumbersome. Just as an afterthought, most intersex (as I am reinterpreting it) are XY or XX. There are many many hermaphroditism syndromes, pseudohermaphroditism, and other steroid pathologies which cause ambiguous genitalia. At one of the spectrum is testicular feminization or complete androgen insensitivity. These individuals are XY but are outwardly female. Many others range from complete indifferent genitalia to small malformations like urospadiae and hypospadiae and hyperplastic clitorises. There are a host of others, but true hermaphrodites are very rare. These have both ovarian and testicular tissue, and this is due to very severe genetic and developmental malfunctions. Rarely, they are XY/XX (or XY/XO) mosaics, often occuring when twins fuse during embryogenesis or chromosomes are lost or gained very early in development. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251/20 "2002-06-06T00:02:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astro \* > I’m taking you seriously and I’m trying to follow this. There are men (physically) who feel they are women (mentally) but who are attracted to women sexually, so they are essentially _lesbians_ trapped in a man’s body? Yep. Anecdotal only, but I know someone ( a somewhat distant acquaintance ) that fits _exactly_ into that category. - Tamerlane [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-transgender-people-see-themselves-as-gay-or-not/112251.md?page=2)