Do very rich companies have an obligation to pay their lowest workers above market rate wages?

It’s the whole “2 business strategies” playing out in the labor market- either you differentiate yourself and raise your own price, or you’re in the lowest cost provider game.

Differentiating one’s self means having education and experience, and using those to figure out where in the market you land. In general, companies are unlikely to intentionally pay much more than necessary for the job they want done, but some jobs command higher salaries than others. Sometimes, companies will pay a premium for someone above and beyond what their job title would indicate- experience is usually the determinant here.

If you’re not differentiating yourself very much, or very effectively, you’re a product that corporations look at as fungible and a commodity; like a bar of soap or a sack of flour. They want to hire you for as little as they possibly can, because in their view, it’s throwing money down the toilet and they can always find someone just like you to do that job for that amount.

Clearly Harvard’s paying an appropriate wage (in terms of what the market will bear) if they have enough cafeteria workers to run the cafeteria efficiently. If it was too low, they’d lose workers to better-paying competition in the labor market. If it was higher, it’s unlikely that it would make much difference to the sales of meal plans, the quality of the food, or the service. So why pay more, or so the conventional thinking goes.

Some companies have found that paying more pays dividends in customer service and motivation- Costco, In-n-Out, and Wal-Mart, of all places have done this with great success.

Ultimately though; it’s not an obligation on the part of companies. It’s a smart thing to do to pay above market- you get better workers and the effects compound on themselves.
On the subject of profit sharing and stockholders, etc…

The big thing is the assumption of risk. That’s the thing that the “fuck the shareholders” crowd doesn’t ever get. Stockholders are essentially risking their money on the assumption that the company will be profitable. They lose money if it’s not profitable.

Meanwhile, Joe Worker isn’t risking anything financial by working there. Barring a total collapse of the company, he’s going to be paid his wage for doing his job, even if the company loses money that quarter (or year or whatever). So the stockholders are gambling in a sense, and the workers aren’t. They get paid regardless, within the boundaries of normal business.

So if a company posts a small loss, without it being any kind of threat of layoffs or anything to the company, the shareholders not only didn’t make money, but literally lost money. The workers get paid though- they assumed no financial risk. That’s why the shareholders get the profit- they assume the risk.

Yes, the company runs on the workers’ labor, but they’re compensated for that labor. Profit is what’s left over AFTER they’re paid, and other expenses are met. Profit sharing is a smart thing to do, I believe, but it’s not mandatory, and sometimes it may not even make sense.

Years ago I believe there was the proposal that companies should not be allowed to pay their highest-paid employee X times amount more than their lowest-paid employee. I.e., if the limit is set at a 30X ratio, then if the lowest-paid employee earns $10 an hour, then the highest-paid employee (assumedly, the CEO) could not be paid more than the equivalent of $300 an hour.
Sounds fair.

You have an obligation to pay your employees more and not take any of the money yourself. Haven’t you been following the thread? As the sole shareholder, all you did was sit on your behind while your employees did the work.

Wait till Nick Saban, the Rock, Tom Cruise, Bill & Hillary Clinton, and Kevin Hart hear about this.

Harvard is offering a deal to this worker that is, for her, preferable to offers made by the rest of the world, and she is not happy.

This sounds nice, but it’s not actually going to accomplish what people want it to.

If this really were passed, you’d see a stratification of companies into high-paying ones that use little unskilled labor and low-paying ones that use lots, with the high-paying ones hiring the lower-paying ones for contract work, and you’d probably see lots of inefficiencies in the low-paying ones as a result of the fact that they can’t pay their executives enough to attract good ones.

Take, say, Google, as an example. Right now, it has cafeteria workers, and they’re paid significantly less than 1/300th of the CEO. But its important workers, the ones that the company relies on to have a product at all, are software developers, who are paid pretty well. The cafeteria workers can easily be outsourced. So, what happens if you add the 300x rule? Well, I’m pretty sure that the CEO doesn’t take a massive pay cut. And I’m pretty sure that the cafeteria workers don’t get a massive raise. I bet what happens is that Google fires their cafeteria workers, leases their existing food production space to some other company, and buys food from them.

So, the end result isn’t really that different. The lower-paid workers are no longer employees of Google. They’re employees of some local restaurant that happens to be located at Google.

It does mean that you probably don’t have massive companies that rely on low-skilled labor. Why use that fancy business school education to be the CEO of McDonalds, where your pay is capped at 300*minimum wage, when you can go be the CEO of Google and get paid thousands of times more?

You pay more so that your employees care enough about their jobs to take orders quickly, couteously, efficiently, and accuratley, rather than someone who does not care, and takes orders slowly, rudely, and incorrectly. I have seen that .50 on the hour can make that difference. That can be the difference between the guy making your food knowing and caring about food safety poliicies and procedures, and not caring enough to wash his hands between wiping his ass and making your salad.

As you as a customer find yourself not enjoying the experience, you will go somewhere else, and that cafeteria will lose busniess.

The thing is, the stockholders knew about the risk when they bought the stock. They knew that past performance does not guarantee future results. They know that their money the have invested can be lost. They should not invest with money that they cannot afford to lose.

Yes, the stockholders are gambling, and the workers are just trying to make a living. Why do the stockholders come first?

Barring a total collapse of the company, the next quarter should be better. The stockholders only lose money if they sell their holdings. If they are in for long term, then a quarter or even longer of losses will not hurt them. If they are in for the short term, they are part of the problem.

Profit is not guaranteed. Profit is in fact an inefficiency in a free market. The only way to sustain a profit is to have something that separates you from the rest of an industry. Expecting a profit on a commodity is futile and harmful.

If the cafeteria is outsourced, then suddenly, the workers have a similar situation to a union. Google would pay the company, and the company would pay the workers. If the company providing the workers wants to pay their workers more, they can charge more on the bid for the contract. If google wants to pay less than that bid, they can take a contract from a company that underbids them.

If the important employees like software engineers complain about the cafeteria experience, then google will fire the cheaper company, and hire the more expensive one that pays its workers better.

In alot of ways, it is actually easier to manage that situation than to try to manage each of the employees, deciding how much they should make. Outsourcing that to another company actually makes sense.

I do say this with 3 years of corporate catering experience, where that was exactly what I did, replace in house food service for corporations.

Sometimes, they would hire our company, and other times, their employees would complain about the company that they hired instead until they finally caved and payed the 10% or so more that we charged to get better quality food and service.

I disagree. Profit is a measure of how much value you have created for society.

If I manufacture a Widget and my all in costs is $1, and I offer it for sale, and you are willing to pay me $3 for it because you value it that much, then I have created $2 of value for society, as you valued the widget $2 more than my full costs to produce it. Having a sustainable competitive advantage that allows me to continue to produce that product at a $2 profit isn’t inefficiency. It may be technological know how, it may be location or distribution advantage.

And even commodity producers need a certain level of profit to ensure reinvestment economics, or suppliers will go away. And even commodity producers can have location or distribution advantages.

Sounds completely arbitrary, and therefore the opposite of “fair”.

This would be true if wages were the primary reason for turnover, but all the classes I’ve taken say that a bad boss is in fact the number one reason. For many jobs there is a barrier to moving, involving comfort of being where you are and risk of a new place. Once wages - and working conditions - have improved to some reasonable level, turnover decreases even if other companies pay as much.
In any case, the risk of all companies doing the right thing seems rather tiny to me.

Were you sleeping during the bubble, John?

No, I wasn’t. Did you have any other questions? Perhaps a query about the price of butter in Denmark? :slight_smile:

What are the main ways in which bosses are bad?

And if I open up a shop doing the same, and selling for 2, then you only get 1 dollar more. Then someone else comes and sells it for 1.50, then someone else for 1.25, then 1.10, then 1.05, then 1.01.

If you have a monopoly on that advantage (like a patent), then you can continue to charge more than the costs to produce while the patent is in effect. If you have a monopoly on your name, in which consumers associate your name with quality, then you can charge more than your costs, but that costs capital and equity investment to create that name recognition, and that can go away er easily if your product or service is no longer of the highest quality.

If you sell a commodity in a market that others are able to freely enter, then no, you cannot profit without either colluding with your competition, or finding a way to cut cost more than your competition is willing to.

In a true free market, the thing that conservatives are always talking about being the ideal, there is no way to profit. Anyone can copy your business, and do it for less. All of the things you talk about as far as location or distribution advantage is an inefficiency to get the consumer to pay more for a product or service than they would have been able to pay for it in a true free market.

Yeah, there would be some interesting spinoff effects from making such a rule.

But there’s no way that it leads to low-paid workers getting massive raises or [the vast majority of] CEOs getting a massive pay cut. It doesn’t solve the inequality of pay problem it sets out to solve.

It does make massive companies that rely on low-paid workers more difficult to have. Not convinced that’s a bonus.

What kind of “obligation”? A legal one? Certainly not. A good business case? Quite possibly, because it could be justified in terms of employee retention and loyalty. An ethical obligation? It depends, but an argument could be made there, too. There are more than a few reasons that a company doing very well should share the wealth, and if it fears making long-term salary commitments, a common practice is to share the wealth through bonuses.

As for duty to stockholders, what happens to that “duty” when the board grants an exorbitant 8-figure salary to their CEO and similar largesse to all his friends? How about when the stockholders get screwed outright by unfair buyouts that benefit only those sitting in the boardroom, or the company is driven into the ground by incompetent management who then abscond on golden parachutes? Where is the duty to stockholders then, and how does that compare to paying the cleaning staff a decent wage?

Every business cannot be “very rich”, either. But the OP asks about that specific case.

Not to mention, subject to extremely unfortunate misinterpretation! :smiley:

When a local business got rid of its cafeteria staff, and contracted us to feed their 250 employees 3 days a week (on their own for Monday and Friday), we hired 4 new employees, two of which had actually worked as cafeteria workers there previously. We paid substantially above minimum wage, and the two who came to work for us got nearly a 25% raise in the transition. (They were barely over minimum wage, we hired them a 1.50 over, plus tip and service pool, which was usually another 2 an hour.) So, yeah, it is possible for people to get a raise out of that situation. The employees also liked the food better.

Though I think that tax policy disincentive the practice of removing equity from a company to put into your own pocket would be much more beneficial than trying to tie everyone’s wage together. If a CEO had to pay 60, 70, 80, or even 90% tax on his top marginal rate, he may decide that leaving that money in the company is a better way for him to control wealth, than taking it out of the company for personal use.

If a company is “very rich” - no idea what that means, btw, then the market is skewed in some way. At that point we need a lot more information …

Corporations do not exist to provide a living for the workers.