# Do we actually know that late-Roman society was basically monotheistic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 17, 2025, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721 "2025-03-17T14:46:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2025, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/21 "2025-03-17T17:07:27Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > I went looking for this out of curiousity and found this 1949 essay on Mithraism by one Martin Luther King Jr Very cool. I had no idea that was a thing. Far be it from me to argue with the great man, but as I understand it that is far more than we actually know about the beliefs of Mithras, and must include a lot of postulation (it’s presumably written as theology not history) My understanding is we know they involved fire and bulls and demigods fighting bulls, and that’s about it ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2025, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/22 "2025-03-17T17:15:29Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > My question is how do we know this? The mystery cults were well, mysterious. That’s not what “mystery” means in this context. The mystery cults wouldn’t have been widespread if the adherents weren’t allowed to tell anyone about them. And certainly we know much about at least one of the mystery cults, and that it was monotheistic. Christianity itself was one of those mystery cults. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2025, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/23 "2025-03-17T19:01:20Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > So a fact, that comes up in any modern history of the later Roman empire, is that long before Christianity became the dominant religion, Roman society had basically become monotheistic. By late antiquity (approx the reign of Diocletian in 284CE) the kind of pagan polytheism we think of when we think of Roman religion, based on a pantheon of anthropomorphic gods (who acted like arseholes and had no interest in the salvation or well being of humanity) was not what your average Roman believed in. Instead they had been replaced by a set of Eastern “mystery cults” that if not literally monotheistic were very close to it (focusing on a senior deity) and just as focused on personal salvation as Christianity. Nope, Mithras was only for men and generally only for men in the Military. The Old Roman gods had become more like a tradition. > [@Stanislaus](#): > > Anyhow, that looks to me like serious scholarship saying that the cult of Mithra offered adherents personal salvation of their immortal souls from sin accumulated before birth. The issue with that is that it was a Mystery Religion. No Holy texts survive. All that has to be hypothesized from the little we actually know. > [@griffin1977](#): > > Far be it from me to argue with the great man, but as I understand it that is far more than we actually know about the beliefs of Mithras, and must include a lot of postulation Correct. > [@hogarth](#): > > I had the impression from my university history class that mystery cults (like Mithras or Isis) were popular, but by no means universal around the time of Christianity. Is that incorrect? Right. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2025, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/24 "2025-03-17T19:42:16Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > I did also find cites suggesting that the cults of Isis and Cybele also offered personal salvation Though in terms of the OP I think there is a big logical jump between saying some of these cults may have offered something that could be described as personal salvation, and saying that your average Roman in late antiquity did not believe in the traditional polytheistic Roman pantheon and instead believed in a monotheistic(ish) cult that offered them personal salvation. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2025, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/25 "2025-03-17T21:44:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That’s not what “mystery” means in this context. Then what does it mean? It’s the central definition of mystery cults in every context I’ve read: e.g. Wikipedia: > **Mystery religions** , **mystery cults** , **sacred mysteries** or simply **mysteries** ([Greek](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): μυστήρια), were religious schools of the [Greco-Roman world](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Roman_world) for which participation was reserved to [initiates](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initiation_rite) _(mystai)_ . The main characteristic of these religious schools was the secrecy associated with the particulars of the initiation and the ritual practice, which may not be revealed to outsiders ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2025, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/26 "2025-03-17T23:41:53Z")
The last section of the wiki article on Roman mystery religions loosely addresses the OP. According to my reading of wiki, this is an unsettled controversy. In fact, it was somewhat controversial in ancient times: “Non-Christians in the Roman Empire in the early centuries CE, such as Lucian and Celsus, thought Christianity and the mystery cults resembled each other. Reacting to these claims by outsiders, early Christian apologists, such as Justin Martyr, denied that these cults had influenced their religion.” Interesting topic. > **[Greco-Roman mysteries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Roman_mysteries)** > > Mystery religions, mystery cults, sacred mysteries or simply mysteries (Greek: μυστήρια), were religious schools of the Greco-Roman world for which participation was reserved to initiates (mystai). The main characteristic of these religious schools was the secrecy associated with the particulars of the initiation and the ritual practice, which may not be revealed to outsiders. The most famous mysteries of Greco-Roman antiquity were the Eleusinian Mysteries, which predated the Greek Dark Ages. The... ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2025, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/27 "2025-03-17T23:46:27Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Non-Christians in the Roman Empire in the early centuries CE, such as Lucian and Celsus, thought Christianity and the mystery cults resembled each other. Hell, Christianity essentially _started_ as a Greek mystery cult. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/28 "2025-03-18T00:16:04Z")
So what was religion like in the day-to-day life of an average Italian circa 200 AD? ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/29 "2025-03-18T10:30:12Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Though in terms of the OP I think there is a big logical jump between saying some of these cults may have offered something that could be described as personal salvation, and saying that your average Roman in late antiquity did not believe in the traditional polytheistic Roman pantheon and instead believed in a monotheistic(ish) cult that offered them personal salvation. Sure - I was kind of surprised that the cites went that far. It is of course hard to deduce from this distance how widespread or heartfelt something as internal as belief might be. Archaeology is one source that speaks to geographical spread and also to sociology - e.g. Mithraism has roots in the military. We also have writings not necessarily about beliefs but e.g. people talking about how many of these blasted Isis worshippers you see nowadays, the comparison of mystery cults with Christianity etc. but compared to the evidence for e.g. belief in Christianity in 12th century France, it’s pretty thin. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/30 "2025-03-18T12:18:58Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > That always struck me as very un Buddhist Go ahead and tell that to the hundreds of millions of Pure Land Buddhists who have followed their practices for centuries… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/31 "2025-03-18T13:06:34Z")
Bret Devereaux covers Roman-era topics quite well in his blog, and he did [a series of posts](https://acoup.blog/category/collections/practical-polytheism/) a while back on how polytheism works day-to-day (with a lot of Roman focus as that’s his area) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/32 "2025-03-18T13:43:02Z")
Interesting. So how did polytheist rituals coexist with the mystery cults? Did Mithraists still sacrifice to Neptune before a sea voyage? Or was Mithra, in effect, a one-stop-shop? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/33 "2025-03-18T13:49:03Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > how did polytheist rituals coexist with the mystery cults? Did Mithraists still sacrifice to Neptune before a sea journey? Or was Mithra, in effect, a one-stop-shop? The same way such cults had always coexisted with mainstream greco-roman polytheism. “Coexisted” is not the right word they were part of mainstream greco-roman polytheism. The idea that they were this radically different thing that shared more in common with Abrahamic monotheism is not supported by the evidence IMO. The main difference in the eyes of contemporary Romans (at least the rich literate male contemporary Romans who opinions were recorded) is they were from “the East” and hence inherently not to be trusted by an honest roman. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/34 "2025-03-18T13:51:55Z")
So that’s a yes to Neptune? Would members of mystery cults still perform rituals venerating the mainstream gods, when needed, without this being seen as a paradox? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/35 "2025-03-18T13:57:08Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So that’s a yes to Neptune? Mystery cult members would still perform rituals venerating the mainstream gods, when needed? Probably? That’s the thing we know almost nothing about what followers of Mithras believed or did. It’s one the most widespread cults in later antiquity, there are temples to Mithras _everywhere_ (particularly anywhere there was a roman military presence, as it was closely associated with the military). But we know almost nothing about it. Of course that also means that it allows future commentators to fill in the gaps with whatever their pet theory is ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/36 "2025-03-18T14:00:13Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Probably? That’s the thing we know almost nothing about what followers of Mithras believed or did. It’s one the most widespread cults in later antiquity, there are temples to Mithras _everywhere_ (particularly anywhere there was a roman military presence, as it was closely associated with the military). But we know almost nothing about it. Forget about its beliefs and practices. Do we know anything about its _members_? Can we point to a specific Roman general or governor who was known to be a Mithras follower, and who was also recorded somewhere as making sacrifices to Mars? Also: you say that temples were built to Mithras everywhere. Were temples to other gods in these areas neglected or abandoned following their construction? This is something archeologists might be able to see. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/37 "2025-03-18T14:18:45Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Forget about its beliefs and practices. Do we know anything about its _members_? Can we point to a specific Roman general or governor who was known to be a Mithras follower, and who was also recorded somewhere as making sacrifices to Mars? I don’t think we can because they were so secretive but it’s likely a huge chunk of the senior military leaders (including the emperors) at it’s height were followers of Mithras. And seeing as it would have been a huge deal, and would have been commented on by contemporaries, if those senior figures had stopped sacrificing to rest of the pantheon, it’s safe to say they didn’t stop. It would have literally put the future of Rome in jeopardy in the eyes of their contemporaries (we certainly heard about it when senior Christians stopped doing so) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/38 "2025-03-18T14:38:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Would members of mystery cults still perform rituals venerating the mainstream gods, when needed, without this being seen as a paradox? The Mithraists were primarily military, and they would definitely have been required to partake in the non-Mithraic [military](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_ancient_Rome#Religion_and_the_military) and civic [religious rituals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_ancient_Rome#Religio_and_the_state) and the [Imperial cult](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_imperial_cult). We also know many _mithraea_ contained statues of other gods (eg [the one in London](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Mithraeum#Excavation_and_artefacts)), and inscriptions to Mithras are found at other religious sites. No paradox would have been observed in doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/39 "2025-03-18T14:42:01Z")
OK, then I think we can conclude that Mithraism was not monotheistic. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/40 "2025-03-18T15:40:49Z")
The Jewish population of the early Roman Empire was substantial; per Wikipedia, some historians think it was as high as 10% of the population, although others differ. In any case, it was large enough that most Romans would certainly have _heard of_ actual monotheism. My WAG is that there were probably a lot of monotheistic or quasi-monotheistic cults in the Mediterranean world of the early CE competing for the “monotheism sounds cool but I don’t want to mutilate my genitals” market segment, of which the Christians and Muslims eventually hit the big time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721.md?page=3)