# Do we actually know that late-Roman society was basically monotheistic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 17, 2025, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721 "2025-03-17T14:46:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/41 "2025-03-18T15:43:57Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Henotheism, the belief in a superior deity in a pantheon, is not 'basically monotheism. Historically it seems to be at least the gateway drug to monotheism. There’s pretty clear evidence that early Judaism was henotheistic. God in Exodus talks about wanting to prove Himself superior to the Egyptian gods, not to prove that they didn’t exist at all. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/42 "2025-03-18T16:13:35Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > My WAG is that there were probably a lot of monotheistic or quasi-monotheistic cults in the Mediterranean world of the early CE competing for the “monotheism sounds cool but I don’t want to mutilate my genitals” market segment, of which the Christians and Muslims eventually hit the big time Christianity sure. Islam requires penises be circumcised ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/43 "2025-03-18T16:15:04Z")
D’oh. I knew that. Sorry, Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/44 "2025-03-18T16:24:43Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Historically it seems to be at least the gateway drug to monotheism. There’s pretty clear evidence that early Judaism was henotheistic. That I don’t deny. There is indeed plenty of evidence and it is indeed pretty clear. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > God in Exodus talks about wanting to prove Himself superior to the Egyptian gods, not to prove that they didn’t exist at all. For that, I would need to see the exact wording used. Many people say ‘Thou shalt have no other gods before Me’ acknowledged the existence of othe gods. It doesn’t. If my parents had said ‘No writing letters to Santa’ they would not have been acknowlidging the existence of Santa. AFAIK debate on whether Isis, Osiris and the rest were some form of supernatural entity that actually gave their priests magical powers or whether no other gods exist but the G-d of Israel has going on since before the Torah was actually written down from oral tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/45 "2025-03-18T16:33:01Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Many people say ‘Thou shalt have no other gods before Me’ acknowledged the existence of othe gods. It doesn’t. Well, it can. When I was a kid, I reasoned (with no help from religious authorities) that it allowed polytheism so long as gods 2–∞ were ranked 2 or below. That was my own personal gateway into paganism, though it wasn’t too long before I abandoned the notional Christianity that brought me to that gate. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/46 "2025-03-18T16:34:53Z")
I don’t feel like looking up chapter and verse right now, but Exodus definitely portrays the Egyptian magicians as having actual magical powers; they’re able to match Moses’ trick of turning his staff into a snake. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/47 "2025-03-18T16:34:55Z")
I should have been clearer- It does not _deny_ the existence of other gods either. It just forbids a certain practice. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/48 "2025-03-18T16:36:59Z")
Yes. I think the phrase in context in the Hebrew Bible mean one thing (or a small set of things), but the decontextualized words on the page can mean many more things. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/49 "2025-03-18T16:37:56Z")
I remember that. They also match him when he turns water in a small vessel into blood, and when he turns his hand from healthy to a very advanced case of leprousy and back. None of that is proof of actual supernatural ability. Many argue, as was shown in the animated film Prince Of Egypt, that while Moses’ abilities were genuin miracles the Egyptians just used stage magic and sleight of hand. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/50 "2025-03-18T16:44:10Z")
I’m looking at Exodus 20:3 right now, and the bit translated as “before me” or “besides me” is _al p’nay_, which literally means something like “to my face”. So the sense may be “Don’t let me see you worshipping other gods right in front of me” (with the understanding that _everywhere_ is right in front of God). Anyway, I think we’re getting a little hijacky here. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/51 "2025-03-18T16:48:10Z")
It repeatedly says, though, that the Egyptian magicians did these things “with their spells”. Which _could_ be interpreted as meaning “with their fake spells”, but that’s not the plain text meaning. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/52 "2025-03-18T16:48:28Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Anyway, I think we’re getting a little hijacky here. Yeah, probably. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/53 "2025-03-18T17:25:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Were temples to other gods in these areas neglected or abandoned following their construction? I dont think so. Even if people didnt believe in say- Neptune- a show of piety was the “thing” to do. Just like many of the Founding Fathers were deists, but they went to a church for the social benefits. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/54 "2025-03-18T18:17:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > dont think so. Even if people didnt believe in say- Neptune- a show of piety was the “thing” to do. > > Just like many of the Founding Fathers were deists, but they went to a church for the social benefits. I mean that clearly was a thing. But it was a thing for as long as Greco-Roman polytheism was a thing (again among the rich male literate elites who’s opinion has survived in written form). The earliest Greek writings include stuff along the lines of “no one believes this crap but it helps keep people in line”. I don’t see any evidence it was significantly more prevalent in late antiquity than the golden age of Athens. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/55 "2025-03-18T18:34:16Z")
I’ve always assumed the more intelligent Greeks and Romans believed in “the gods” in general, but didn’t take the specific myths of their pantheon literally (much like religion works these days). I have no cites, though. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/56 "2025-03-18T19:59:19Z")
Bret Devereaux, who I cited above,has this take: > **it is generally safe to assume that people in the past believed their own religion**. Which is to say that polytheists genuinely believe there are many gods and that those gods have power over their lives, and _act accordingly_ . ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/57 "2025-03-18T20:51:53Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I’ve always assumed the more intelligent Greeks and Romans believed in “the gods” in general, but didn’t take the specific myths of their pantheon literally Why? How else did they explain the world? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/58 "2025-03-18T21:10:05Z")
There’s a really common conception that myths “explain the world” for pre-monotheistic, pre-scientific people, which theory is late Victorian. Myths are narratives which both inquire into and reinforce cultural systems. They need not be believed literally, though they can be, but nearly ALL of our information about Greek and Roman mythology is through the vehicle of literature or largely decontextualized art. We have a pretty good understanding of the system overall, but with huge gaps (say, any myth expressed by a female human). It’s safe to say that these myths weren’t believed as fundamentalists believe their myths, i.e. not literally. They’re taken seriously, and they give insight into the nature of the gods, but that’s not the same thing as being believed credulously. The cults of the saints in Greek Orthodox / Roman Catholic Christianity is probably an indication of what happens when henotheism carries the day in a polytheistic system. Not in the official theology, of course, but in vernacular (“lived”) religion. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/59 "2025-03-18T21:21:10Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > It’s safe to say that these myths weren’t believed as fundamentalists believe their myths, i.e. not literally. They’re taken seriously, and they give insight into the nature of the gods, but that’s not the same thing as being believed credulously. I feel that is a debate worthy of its own thread. Personally, I feel the range of beliefs was the same as today. Some believed literally, all the way to athiests openly saying that there are no gods. The percentages of where people were on the spectrum were likely different, but not by much. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721/60 "2025-03-18T21:24:03Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > There’s a really common conception that myths “explain the world” for pre-monotheistic, pre-scientific people, which theory is late Victorian Cite? I don’t see any evidence that people believed their myths explained world any less in the year 200ce than they did in the year 1800ce That’s not to say everyone did but then not everyone did in 1800 either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-actually-know-that-late-roman-society-was-basically-monotheistic/1015721.md?page=4)