# Do we have enough immigrants in the US? If not should there be a limit? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 8, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371 "2010-06-08T01:01:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371/41 "2010-06-09T22:32:16Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t even know what that means. “If you don’t speak English, get out”. is what that means. Frankly, the attitudes displayed here astound me. But I wonder how much is true “anti-immigration” and how much is anti-immigration as an attempt to disguise racism. ---
**Author:** ![SeaCanary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@SeaCanary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaCanary)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371/42 "2010-06-09T22:50:26Z")
> [@Angua](#): > > “If you don’t speak English, get out”. is what that means. > > Frankly, the attitudes displayed here astound me. But I wonder how much is true “anti-immigration” and how much is anti-immigration as an attempt to disguise racism. It means people need to learn English so that they don’t have to rely on my resources to support them in this specific endeavor. And it isn’t anti-immigration. It’s a comment on those who don’t assimilate and a government that enables that. And stop attributing to me attitudes or attributes that I don’t endorse. ---
**Author:** ![SeaCanary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@SeaCanary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaCanary)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371/43 "2010-06-09T22:52:23Z")
And it’s an American characteristic. Or at least it used to be. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371/44 "2010-06-09T22:58:03Z")
> [@SeaCanary](#): > > It means people need to learn English so that they don’t have to rely on my resources to support them in this specific endeavor. And it isn’t anti-immigration. It’s a comment on those who don’t assimilate and a government that enables that. > > And stop attributing to me attitudes or attributes that I don’t endorse. Well, if you said that first, maybe it wouldn’t have been taken the wrong way. Look, I’m all for learning the language of the country that you live in to a proficient level. I know that when I moved to France, it was sink or swim regarding the language, I had to learn French to get by and didn’t get any help whatsoever. But it made settling in _hard_ and I never really felt at home in France. When I moved to the US, I was lucky in that I did at least know the language, and culturally, I’ve adapted a lot. But how much assimilation do you want? Seriously? Do I need to start waving US flags at any and all opportunities, deny my Englishness and start perfecting an American accent? Or is the fact that I speak English, dress in a way that doesn’t make me stand out, and am an economically contributing member of American society enough? ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371/45 "2010-06-09T23:03:44Z")
> [@SeaCanary](#): > > It means people need to learn English so that they don’t have to rely on my resources to support them in this specific endeavor. And it isn’t anti-immigration. It’s a comment on those who don’t assimilate and a government that enables that. > > And stop attributing to me attitudes or attributes that I don’t endorse. Oh, yes, I very often see people speaking out against European illegal immigrants, the 2nd-largest group by nationality at 1.1 million and lets not forget the 300,000+ Russian, 110,000+ Yugoslavian, 118,000+ Japanese & 16,000+ Australian that no one ever seems to mention. Oh, wait, they aren’t brown. (numbers: 2000 Census) ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371/46 "2010-06-09T23:08:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > [The children of those potato peelers and bed turners generally do just as well as those born to “native” parents](http://www.forbes.com/2007/05/21/outsourcing-waters-harvard-oped-cx_mcw_0529harvard.html) Given that I made no comment otherwise, I’m not sure why you think that pointing that out has any relevance to what I said. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371/47 "2010-06-10T00:22:28Z")
> [@SeaCanary](#): > > It means people need to learn English so that they don’t have to rely on my resources to support them in this specific endeavor. And it isn’t anti-immigration. It’s a comment on those who don’t assimilate and a government that enables that. Learning another language when you’re not a kid is really fucking **hard**. I’m impressed by anyone who can learn English as a non-native language well enough to trust that they understand in-English government forms, which are frankly pretty hard for even many native-born Americans to comprehend. So I’m not going to begrudge a translator here, a translated form there. You know who **does** learn English easy? Their kids. They go to American schools and if they’re young enough when they start, they learn English no problem. Most kids of immigrants don’t know their parents’ language(s) all that well by the time they’re adults, and most grandkids know nothing of it. Sometimes the kids don’t want to learn, sometimes the parents want the kids to know English so they can assimilate and get by well. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371/48 "2010-06-10T03:13:53Z")
> [@SeaCanary](#): > > It means people need to learn English so that they don’t have to rely on my resources to support them in this specific endeavor. And it isn’t anti-immigration. It’s a comment on those who don’t assimilate and a government that enables that. Do you want them to learn the language overnight? Research clearly shows that non-English-speaking immigrants do learn the language, and their kids primarily speak English. However, unless you want them to be (a) easy targets for exploitation, and (b) unproductive members of society, you should probably just suck it up and deal with the fact that you can file a tax return in Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![SeaCanary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@SeaCanary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaCanary)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371/49 "2010-06-10T04:54:10Z")
> [@Angua](#): > > Well, if you said that first, maybe it wouldn’t have been taken the wrong way. If you hadn’t been so quick to lump me in with the other “attitudes displayed here” I wouldn’t have been taken the wrong way. At least by you. > [@Angua](#): > > Do I need to start waving US flags at any and all opportunities, deny my Englishness and start perfecting an American accent? Or is the fact that I speak English, dress in a way that doesn’t make me stand out, and am an economically contributing member of American society enough? Actually you don’t even have to speak English as far as I’m concerned. I require you to not need a translation from English to any other language by any government agency from the federal level all the way down to the tiniest municipality. That includes voting instructions, signs at the Department of Motor Vehicles, notes sent by schools attached to report cards, websites, everything. If a government agency in the U.S. – forget territories for the moment – writes it, it’s written in English. ---
**Author:** ![SeaCanary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@SeaCanary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaCanary)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371/50 "2010-06-10T05:01:44Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Oh, yes, I very often see people speaking out against European **illegal immigrants** , the 2nd-largest group by nationality at 1.1 million and lets not forget the 300,000+ Russian, 110,000+ Yugoslavian, 118,000+ Japanese & 16,000+ Australian that no one ever seems to mention. I’m not addressing **illegal immigrants**. I’m addressing assimilation specifically as an American characteristic. > [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Oh, wait, they aren’t brown. Exactly what are you saying or implying? Do not pose questions. Speak directly. ---
**Author:** ![SeaCanary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@SeaCanary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaCanary)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371/51 "2010-06-10T05:08:37Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Learning another language when you’re not a kid is really fucking **hard**. I’m impressed by anyone who can learn English as a non-native language well enough to trust that they understand in-English government forms, which are frankly pretty hard for even many native-born Americans to comprehend. Then let the gummint fix the forms. In English. > [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > So I’m not going to begrudge a translator here, a translated form there. As long as it’s on your nickel I say go for it. ---
**Author:** ![SeaCanary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@SeaCanary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaCanary)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371/52 "2010-06-10T05:39:35Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Do you want them to learn the language overnight? Nope. Let 'em take as long as they want to learn to read English. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Research clearly shows that non-English-speaking immigrants do learn the language, and their kids primarily speak English. I’ve heard this, but I’ve never been blessed with a source to quote from. Soooo here’s your/my chance. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > However, unless you want them to be (a) easy targets for exploitation, and (b) unproductive members of society, you should probably just suck it up and deal with the fact that you can file a tax return **in Spanish**. In **Spanish**? Not Russian, Mandarin, Haitian Creole, Vietnamese or Arabic? Exactly why do you say IN SPANISH?? ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371/53 "2010-06-10T11:37:51Z")
> [@SeaCanary](#): > > If you hadn’t been so quick to lump me in with the other “attitudes displayed here” I wouldn’t have been taken the wrong way. At least by you. And why do you think that it may have been taken that way? When you start with potentially inflammatory language, its going to get heated. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371/54 "2010-06-10T14:25:05Z")
> [@SeaCanary](#): > > I’ve heard this, but I’ve never been blessed with a source to quote from. Soooo here’s your/my chance. [Here](http://pewhispanic.org/files/factsheets/foreignborn2008/Table%2022.pdf) you go (2008 numbers). Just 15% of those 18 and younger do not speak English fluently after 10 years, even though nearly 40% do not speak English fluently after less than 10 years. 66% of those over 18 do not speak English fluently less than 10 years after arrival; that figure drops to 44% after 18 years. > [@](#): > > In **Spanish**? Not Russian, Mandarin, Haitian Creole, Vietnamese or Arabic? > > Exactly why do you say IN SPANISH?? Because the IRS published Form 1040 in English and Spanish, but not in Russian, Mandarin, Haitian Creole, Vietnamese or Arabic. Telling you to suck it up and deal with the fact that you can file a tax return in any of those languages would be silly, because you can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371/55 "2010-06-10T15:55:32Z")
> [@SeaCanary](#): > > One characteristic of the American culture is it doesn’t require or even desire government documents be translated from English into something else. I’m sorry this is incorrect. That is not American culture. That’s your opinion. I’ve been an American for over 40 years, born and raised in Tennessee and I can assure you my culture does not desire for government documents to be in English only. My state government gladly provides translation to ANY language necessary and in _every_ government-sent letter I get (my daughter has special needs so we have to reapply every six months for state health insurance) there is a blue sheet with dozens of languages explaining that if you need help with an interpreter one will be provided free of charge. That’s MY American government, that’s MY American culture. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371/56 "2010-06-10T16:30:16Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > Where do you live that jobs (any jobs, even menial ones) are still plentiful in this economy? Being a native of metro Detroit, I know some pretty desperate unemployed people that I can start sending your way. They should come to Memphis, if they want to work in roofing anyway. That’s my SO’s last resort day labor work. They can’t keep people on roofs it’s such a miserable position but it pays well enough. My Mig will do any sort of labor and he always finds work for the price he asks as long , but he stands out at the day labor pick up place to get work. Oddly the people I see all look Latino. I know the citizens of Memphis are aware of this place. It was even recently raided by ICE so you’d think out-of-work citizens would be flocking to day labor sites if they were desperate for work. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371/57 "2010-06-10T16:41:12Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > They should come to Memphis, if they want to work in roofing anyway. That’s my SO’s last resort day labor work. They can’t keep people on roofs it’s such a miserable position but it pays well enough. My Mig will do any sort of labor and he always finds work for the price he **asks as long** , but he stands out at the day labor pick up place to get work. > > Oddly the people I see all look Latino. I know the citizens of Memphis are aware of this place. It was even recently raided by ICE so you’d think out-of-work citizens would be flocking to day labor sites if they were desperate for work. Sorry I meant “as long as it’s not the dead of winter”. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371/58 "2010-06-10T17:07:42Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > Oregon. Yep, we have huge unemployment, but it’s largely in forestry, construction, and white-collar jobs. Know what kind of work we still need people to do? Fruit picking. Hazelnut factory work. Or go to the South: Pork-processing plants. Yes, it’s incredibly menial and often unpleasant. That’s why most Americans won’t work those jobs. Latin-American immigrants, though, will. Just like most of our ancestors did upon immigrating to the US. No, they won’t take them because they pay terrible wages for poor working conditions. In addition many Americans have spent considerable time and money investing in education to ensure that they can do something other than that work. If fruit picking and pork processing paid a\*\*\* living wage\*\*\* more people would be interested in the positions. A minimum wage salary is not livable against today’s cost of living. Many of those jobs are seasonal in nature as well, not providing consistent wages. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371/59 "2010-06-10T18:55:34Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > No, they won’t take them because they pay terrible wages for poor working conditions. In addition many Americans have spent considerable time and money investing in education to ensure that they can do something other than that work. If fruit picking and pork processing paid a\*\*\* living wage\*\*\* more people would be interested in the positions. A minimum wage salary is not livable against today’s cost of living. Many of those jobs are seasonal in nature as well, not providing consistent wages. So what? Jobs are there. They just happen to be horrible, by our standards. Native-born Americans aren’t willing to take them (because they think they can do better by staying put and waiting for the economy to recover, etc.). Immigrants are willing to take them. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371/60 "2010-06-10T19:20:19Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > So what? Jobs are there. They just happen to be horrible, by our standards. Native-born Americans aren’t willing to take them (because they think they can do better by staying put and waiting for the economy to recover, etc.). Immigrants are willing to take them. What do you mean “so what?” That is entirely the point. We are exploiting immigrant labor legal and otherwise to make a buck. You don’t see a problem with that? Those jobs are horrible by anyone’s standards. I should think that very, very few people enjoy backbreaking labor in the heat for pitiful pay. If there was not an exploitable immigrant labor pool, those job conditions and pay would have to improve. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-enough-immigrants-in-the-us-if-not-should-there-be-a-limit/542371.md?page=4)