# Do we have less compassion for the poor? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 15, 2015, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707 "2015-02-15T06:33:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707/61 "2015-02-16T18:02:32Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > So would everyone else. And yet every year, middle- and upper-middle-class people vote against measures that would shore up public schools and public transit. “Everyone else” does NOT need these institutions the same way that the poor does. “Everyone else” has alternative choices they can take advantage of, but not the poor. Maybe not in NYC. But this is what happens just about everywhere else. > [@](#): > > I think our policy for poverty should be to teach poor people how to handle poverty, and how to strive for the lower middle class instead of the upper classes. Go for $40,000, and not salaries over $200k. And like I said earlier, the government should guarantee some basic necessities in case things get rough. Seriously, how many poor people do you know are trying to make $200k? Most people, regardless of income level, are just trying to keep from drowning. The minimum wage earner doesn’t sign up for Devry or ITT so that they can make six-figures. They sign up so that they can get out from behind a register or deep-fat fryer one day. People who are protesting in the streets for livable wages aren’t asking for enough money for luxury automobiles and fancy condos. They just want to be able to have a modicum of financial hope. If every dime you have goes to rent and groceries, how can you possibly save enough money to get out of the projects? > [@](#): > > I think you should be. I’m going to try an analogy here. It would be like having a class on what to do should you get a flat tire. What if you become homeless? What should you do? And you think you would have benefited from learning this in high school? By the time an adult becomes homeless–whether due to their own fuckuppery or life’s shittiness–what they learned back in one class in the 9th grade probably is not going to help them all that much. They’d do much better having a strengthened social safety net so that homelessness isn’t something they even have to worry about. > [@](#): > > The reason I think this is a good idea is because I’ve seen few people who did not know their child was eligible for free healthcare. That just means social service agencies need to do a better job of reaching out to people. I don’t think this requires changing high school curricula. > [@](#): > > We do not need to be absolute here. A small decline in envy and jealousy would do the trick. No, it really wouldn’t. You’re basically saying that people should learn to find pleasure in soggy corn flakes when everyone else sitting at the dinner table is feasting on steaks and lobster–and being really loud and obnoxious about it, too. This defies all understanding of human nature. ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707/62 "2015-02-16T18:06:26Z")
Does the Seattle minimum wage thing get much media attention … we hear a bit about it in the UK: > **[The early results from America’s experiments with higher minimum wages](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/08/04/the-early-results-from-americas-experiments-with-higher-minimum-wages/)** > > Cities have begun passing higher minimum wage laws. But the results have been mixed. Endless scare stories. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707/63 "2015-02-16T18:09:07Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I’m not, really, though - I mean, yes, I have a roof over my head, heat in the winter, and food on the table but the roof leaks every time it rains and there’s no getting rid of the mold in the walls anymore. The bar next door had three people shot last week but I can’t afford to move - there’s no way in hell I can come up with a security deposit on a new place, I can barely make the rent where I am now much less save up for a month’s worth extra for security. Instead, I wake up to gunfire at 2 am and dive under the bed. I have a truck that _could_ be helping us make money (it has in the past) but I had a choice between buying toilet paper and paying the co-pays for my spouse’s medication this week and fixing the broken fuel pump. I need new glasses desperately but can’t afford new lenses. I really need to bring in about $300-500 more a month but on the current advancement track at work that will be at least 3 years if all goes well. My spouse is disabled and trying to compete with the able-bodied in the job market is just not working. They cut our food by stamps $150 when I got a $0.25/hour raise at work because somehow by making an extra $42 a month means I can somehow stretch that $42 over what it took $150 to buy the month before. > > No, I’m not doing well at all. I’m not constantly whining about it either, in part because getting on line to a place like this is an escape of sorts for me. > > My disabled spouse needs a job - would you hire him? Otherwise, under our current system he is entitled to NOTHING other than food stamps. > > I live in a house where the back porch literally fell off the building two years ago, the roof leaks, we have mold, we have raccoons nesting in the attic… and I can barely afford the rent on this dump as it is. It’s a damn shame because when we moved in 16 years ago the place was kept up. So while I’m not homeless the housing sucks. > > As I noted, our monthly food benefit was cut $150/month because I earn $42 more a month at work. Apparently this is to “encourage” me to improve my situation. Out of the things you listed I think our government should help your husband find a job and keep your neighborhood safe. I don’t think the government should ensure you have enough money to move to a safe neighborhood thought. > [@](#): > > How about enabling people to _survive_ poverty? I agree with this. > [@](#): > > How about affordable housing, meaning someone can live in a safe, intact, and decent place at minimum wage? I’m a little conflicted on housing and minimum wage because I do not believe the government can do a good job of providing affordable housing or setting the minimum wage. But I confess I do not know much about these issues to be confident in my opinion about them. > [@](#): > > What the hell do you think you can teach me about “how to be poor”? Have YOU ever lived on an income below the poverty line? Please, give me some details on your plan here. You know I was not talking about me personally teaching poor people how to handle being poor, right? > [@](#): > > Yes, good schools ARE a poverty issue because lack of education enormously increases the risk of poverty continuing another generation. What kids to escape poverty, or avoid it entirely? You need to educate them. That costs money. Problem is, we fund schools based on local geography so poor areas have less funding for schools than wealthy areas, further perpetuating unequal opportunities and greatly increasing the risk that poor children will be poor all their lives. > > If you don’t have public transportation that is reliable and useful for commuters then in order to have any job at all you will need a reliable car… which is an additional expense for the poor. If people in such an area lose their car they lose their job, followed rapidly by losing their home. In such places the disabled who are unable to drive can not find jobs at all, even if they’re capable of work. You don’t think that’s a poverty issue? I think you can make this argument for any government service. The poor probably benefit the most from having a postal service as well, but I do not consider it a poverty issue. > [@](#): > > Oh, THANK YOU, I’ve been wondering _all this time_ how the hell I cure my poverty. ALL I HAVE TO DO IS BECOME RICH!!! Hallelujah! > > Now, why isn’t everyone a billionaire already? Like I said up thread, this isn’t what I meant. > [@](#): > > So… what were you taught if, 20 or 30 years into your career your job is made obsolete by new technology and you lose that 6 figure job? What do you do when the choice is between cashing out some or all of that IRA _right now_ so you have a place to live or being homeless? > > You ASSUME that you are magically protected from misfortune. You are not. This is actually what I meant by teaching people to be poor. Schools should make students think about what they would do should they become homeless. Instead they teach students financial planning with the assumption everyone is middle class trying to get into the upper class. There little to no information about how to jump from poverty to lower-middle class. > [@](#): > > You think $50k is poverty? No I don’t. > [@](#): > > Yeah, I know about those things. Problem is when you have to choose between keeping those savings for a future two decades away or putting a roof over your head RIGHT NOW. And there is absolutely no guidance from our schools, pop-culture, and government on how to make these decisions. You can find articles on how to save money in your IRA, but nothing about how to save when there is no money for rent. > [@](#): > > See, this is proof you are not poor. That is NOT the best way to “figure out” social programs. Why do you keep pointing out that I’m not poor. How is that relevant to our conversation? > [@](#): > > What you do is go down to the welfare office and, while you’re sitting on those broken down cheap-ass folding chairs in the big room waiting for your “counselor” to get around to you, you turn to those scary-looking “ghetto” people sitting around you, the ones whose small talk makes it clear they’ve been in the system for years, and you say “Hey, I’m new here, got any pointers?” In addition to how to work the system you are also likely to learn which local junkyard pays most for aluminum cans, where the best soup kitchens are, which food pantries also provide things like toiletries and winter clothing, and how to strip the padding off a mattress so you can sell the bedspring as scrap steel. > > In other words, stop assuming those other folks are as stupid as you’ve been told as these years and TALK TO THEM, you know, the people who actually survive day to day as poor people. You should stop assuming I think those other folks are stupid. The fact that the only way to understand the system is from people who have experience with the system is precisely my point. There is no education from anyone else about the system. No one is teaching poor people how to survive poverty except other poor people. You can argue that those poor people doing the teaching are smart, but I would respond by saying they are not enough. We need people from within the social programs educating the public and we need experts on those systems educating the public. Not just the people dealing with the system for years. As an example, take the federal student loan system. You can call their number after hours and get a good explanation of their policies. Schools also have financial advisers on staff who are experts on the student loan system. Don’t you want the same thing for all social programs? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707/64 "2015-02-16T18:23:01Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [Poverty myths, busted](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/03/10-poverty-myths-busted) My goodness - what a stupid article. > [@](#): > > 1. Single moms are the problem. Only 9 percent of low-income, urban moms have been single throughout their child’s first five years. What does “I had a boyfriend when my daughter was three” have to do with poverty? > [@](#): > > Thirty-five percent were married to, or in a relationship with, the child’s father for that entire time.\* None of the cites provided in the article are particularly solid, but I am guessing “in a relationship with” does not include “he paid his child support on time”. > [@](#): > > 1. Absent dads are the problem. Sixty percent of low-income dads see at least one of their children daily. Another 16 percent see their children weekly.\* “At least one of their children”- what an interesting way to put it. How widely scattered must one’s children be to need such a qualification? And again - nominations for Father of the Year includes supporting one’s children, not just visiting the ones who live with girlfriend-before-last. > [@](#): > > 1. Black dads are the problem. Among men who don’t live with their children, black fathers are more likely than white or Hispanic dads to have a daily presence in their kids’ lives. I don’t think the problem is not that Jamal doesn’t come to visit. It is more that Jamal is disproportionaley likely not to be living with his children’s mother than Juan or Biff are. If you want to bust myths, you need a bit more than this. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Tuxie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ee59a6/32.png) [@Tuxie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuxie)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707/65 "2015-02-16T18:25:26Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m sure **Broomstick** doesn’t need or appreciate your pity. > > And I for one am grateful for **Brookstick’s** presence in threads like this. To let the SD denizens tell it, only stupid, lazy people are poor and life is universally swell for everyone. It can be quite echo-chamberish sometimes here. Her tales of woe (and triumph, too) help to provide a much-needed balance, even though we don’t always agree on everything. > > You don’t know the family resources she has access to, or how many she’s already exploited. As a outsider, it seems like family loyalty (her disabled husband) is the thing that’s really holding her back. In terms of pure dollars and cents, she’d be better off cutting loose and going her own way. And yet, I wouldn’t dare suggest to her that my life is better than hers just because she has made a choice (marital loyalty) that I haven’t. It’s great that you have made a choice to use family to buffer you from the cold, harsh realities of the world. But this could just as easy be a “poor choice” for **Broomstick** or another person. It often is. > > Maybe figure out what’s going on behind the scenes before you say someone’s life is “humiliating”. Nowhere in my post was I judging her. On the contrary, I was using her as an example to remind ourselves what we should be grateful for . Had I not read her tale of woe I might have taken my family a bit more for granted. For those of us who have the comfort and safety of good health and a stable income we can sometimes forget these are not necessarily the default state of affairs for everybody. Because everybody is different. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707/66 "2015-02-16T18:45:59Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > But then WalMart came along and we just want the cheapest. I’d gladly pay more for items if it meant employees were paid a living wage. I think there’s a basic misunderstanding of the relationship between wages and prices. First, there are fundamentally only two basic business strategies. One is to differentiate yourself from your competition in some way. The other is to compete on price. Problem is, when you compete on price, that’s pretty much the overriding motivator- your market is that group of consumers who are looking for the cheapest price. If you go and say “We charge 10% more, but we pay our workers more.” you’ve quit competing on price, and have moved into the differentiation strategy. Wal-Mart competes on price. They pretty much have to be the lowest price vendor for the things they sell (or at least across a typical market basket anyway), or people will tend to go elsewhere. For most retailers, I’d suspect that the big 3 costs are the product cost, the facilities cost (rent, A/C, heat, lighting), and the payroll cost. There’s only so much they can do about each of them, but driving wages to the bare minimum to which they can attract enough qualified people is what they’re effectively doing. What Wal-Mart does for product cost is to get it at the absolute minimum, and then drive their own supply chain costs down, so that they can make the same or more profit margin per unit as the competition, while actually selling it at the lowest cost on the street. Long story short, thinking it’s some kind of scheme to drive wages down and thereby increase profit margin is mistaken. There’s not that much to squeeze in terms of wages, and [their wages aren’t materially lower than most other similar retailers.](http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/11/16/given-walmarts-woes-why-arent-target-employees-str.aspx) Granted, Wal-Mart sounds like a hellish, horrid place to work, but it’s not the pay that’s really at issue; it’s the conditions. An outfit like Trader Joe’s is differentiating themselves; just about nothing that TJ’s sells is on a normal grocery’s shelves, or if it is, it’s in some other format. TJ’s also sells things at a premium because their stuff is interesting, or packaged/pre-processed or whatever in some useful way. As a result, they can afford to pay better salaries, because they can roll that into their price without jacking up their lowest cost market position. Same thing for Costco. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707/67 "2015-02-16T19:16:59Z")
> [@Tuxie](#): > > Nowhere in my post was I judging her. You were pitying her, which is far worse, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707/68 "2015-02-16T23:48:13Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > So… what were you taught if, 20 or 30 years into your career your job is made obsolete by new technology and you lose that 6 figure job? What do you do when the choice is between cashing out some or all of that IRA _right now_ so you have a place to live or being homeless? I suppose I might wonder why someone is earning six figures and has nothing saved up for emergencies. Discussions about what the poor should do to be less poor are largely academic and miss the point. I firmly believe that in this country, we maintain an attitude of hostility (or at best indifference) towards the poor. [According to this article, the more wealth and power you have, the less empathy you are likely to have.](http://healthland.time.com/2010/11/24/the-rich-are-different-more-money-less-empathy/) One of the reasons for that is the rich and powerful don’t have to. It’s more important for a poor person to be able to read his boss’s mood than the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Tuxie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ee59a6/32.png) [@Tuxie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuxie)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707/69 "2015-02-17T00:32:17Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > You were pitying her, which is far worse, IMHO. Look, **Broomstick** is an example of what could happen to anyone. Why are you implying that is a bad thing? It is easy for us to focus on the negatives. But maybe I should appreciate my family, my job, and my house that I will hopefully own in 7 years a lot more knowing there are people out there in their fifties with none of those things. Maybe you should think about it too, Monstro. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707/70 "2015-02-17T01:27:15Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I suppose I might wonder why someone is earning six figures and has nothing saved up for emergencies. > Discussions about what the poor should do to be less poor are largely academic and miss the point. > > I firmly believe that in this country, we maintain an attitude of hostility (or at best indifference) towards the poor. [According to this article, the more wealth and power you have, the less empathy you are likely to have.](http://healthland.time.com/2010/11/24/the-rich-are-different-more-money-less-empathy/) One of the reasons for that is the rich and powerful don’t have to. It’s more important for a poor person to be able to read his boss’s mood than the other way around. Cool, next time I get robbed I’ll appeal to the dude’s superior empathy. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707/71 "2015-02-17T05:49:40Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > I think our policy for poverty should be to teach poor people how to handle poverty, and how to strive for the lower middle class instead of the upper classes. Go for $40,000, and not salaries over $200k. And like I said earlier, the government should guarantee some basic necessities in case things get rough. > > The reason I think this is a good idea is because I’ve seen few people who did not know their child was eligible for free healthcare. I somewhat agree with this because I too have been around people who for example, didnt know there kid was eligible for free lunch. Didnt know they didnt have to pay school fees if they couldnt afford to. Didnt know about programs to provide free or reduced cost dental and medical care. Depending upon your community you’d be surprised at what programs are available. For example, programs to provide free musical instruments to children who want to be in band but cant afford it. Plus I’m around some people with money who would be glad to help out a person if they knew of a specific need. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707/72 "2015-02-17T05:52:30Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Section 8? SERIOUSLY? > > Sorry - see, this is yet another illustration that most people just don’t understand how threadbare the safety net really is. > Section 8 is fucking useless you’re already on the list. > > Come spring I’ll be on the roof, trying to help the landlord find and seal up the leaks, that’s a far more productive step towards sound housing for us than Section 8. Ok, sorry. I was only trying to help. Another suggestion, I’ve worked with Christmas in October and other groups that go out to peoples homes and do minor repairs and upgrades. Are there such programs in your community? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707/73 "2015-02-17T13:49:30Z")
> [@Tuxie](#): > > Broomstick’s situation is why I am grateful to come from a big extended family that all lives nearby. > > I would never want to be in that situation. While I can’t guarantee it would never happen, by fostering a good relationship with my siblings, parents, and other relatives we all look out for each other. Since there’s so many of us, one person falling on hard times isn’t treated like a burden. > > But I understand not everybody is humble enough to ask or offer help from relatives. White people in particular seem rather FYGM about it. Well, in my case, the Nazis eliminated a lot of my extended family. No, that’s not hyperbole, those of my father’s family that didn’t leave Europe by 1939 all died in WWII. It’s not that I have _no_ extended family, but mine is considerably smaller than many others. There are some other issues involving extended family as well as the small size of it (I will mention some of my spouse’s extended family later as highly toxic people). This is also why orphans have historically had a much harder lot in life than people with family. Family does matter. Your observation about white people is spot on in my opinion - some of it is due to cultural factors, such as a lot of white folks having swallowed the kool-aid on self-reliance to an extreme degree, and the fact that family/group assistance has been vital to the survival of black people in the US from colonial days onward, both in slave times and afterward. Other cultures can also have very firm notions of group (sometimes derided as “tribal attitudes”) or value self-reliance more. > [@monstro](#): > > So it’s…complicated. I would definitely tell someone to try to maintain family ties and connections. But I wouldn’t advise them to always live in proximity to family. Sometimes being far away is exactly what a person needs to do to escape poverty (see the fascinating documentary “The Wonderful Whites of West Virginia”). At this point I will note that the family documented in “The Wonderful Whites of West Virginia” are, in fact, my spouse’s cousins. His mother’s maiden name was “White”. All I can say is thank god those people are reluctant to travel away from their mountains. You can not rely on those sorts for support during hard times. Indeed, when my mother-in-law died the locks on her home were changed a half dozen times in two days, each group of relatives that ran through the place removed the existing lock and then replaced it when they left. The place was stripped. Despite our dire financial situation some of those people have called us up begging for money because of this or that need, often whining “But we’re BLOOOOOOD! Blood is thicker than water! We NEEEEEED this!” Apparently, I’m the interloper who “stole” their little angel away. Actually, before we got married my spouse was _seriously_ looking to emigrating to England, even had working papers and a job waiting for him in Britain. In retrospect, it might have been better for him if he had left the country and become British. And it would have gotten him even further away from those nutjobs. Alright, that went on a little longer than I intended, but they are very much an example of Toxic Family You Want to Run Far Away From. > [@Lakai](#): > > When I said “The solution to poverty in America is to become rich” I meant “America’s solution to poverty is to teach poor people how to become rich.” And I do not agree with that solution. That was a poorly worded phrase on my part that you and Broomstick misinterpreted. > > I think our policy for poverty should be to teach poor people how to handle poverty, and how to strive for the lower middle class instead of the upper classes. Go for $40,000, and not salaries over $200k. And like I said earlier, the government should guarantee some basic necessities in case things get rough. OK, I’m on board with that. Yeah, most media “financial advice” is pretty useless for people making under $100k. I know folks (some of which have been here on the Dope) who insist financial decision making is the same for everyone. I disagree. How you manage your resources when you’re in actual poverty is different than when you are wealthy. > [@](#): > > I think you should be. I’m going to try an analogy here. It would be like having a class on what to do should you get a flat tire. What if you become homeless? What should you do? > > The reason I think this is a good idea is because I’ve seen few people who did not know their child was eligible for free healthcare. Such a program also needs to be flexible. When I was first a long-term unemployed at one point I was funneled into the “jobs program” as it then existed. Which was almost entirely geared to high school drop outs and mothers with young children trying to re-enter the job market. When that was the majority of people involved in such a program that was fine, but at the time the people running the program pretty much admitted that they were suddenly seeing people like me, with college degrees and decades of stable work experience, who either didn’t have children at home or whose children were late teens/young 20’s, entering the system. Of course, their GED programs and daycare networks were a complete mismatch. Last year, after leaving a job due to being attacked by a co-worker (because, let me tell you, lower tier jobs have even more nutcases than upper tier ones) I was, again, entered into a state-sponsored jobs program. However, by that point the system had readjusted and, while still have GED programs and the like, now had a track for people like me. Some of it was skills testing and help with resumes, but there was also a sort of group counseling component with similar people where we could both vent about our frustrations AND work on how to market ourselves in a vastly changed job market. Things like how to deal with/avoid ageism (which, let me assure you, DOES exist). Networking with people of a similar background and skillset. Whether to attempt self-employment (and how to manage that if you’d never done it before) vs. looking for traditional paycheck. MUCH more helpful, and it had a lot to do with suddenly getting interviews and landing my current job, which is not glamorous and for which I am tremendously overqualified but which I am grateful to have nonetheless. > [@Tuxie](#): > > Well sure, it’s no guarantee just like anything else, be it health, stable job, stable home, etc. But I have also observed people who had loving, supportive families pretty much ditch them to go live far away, and never really consider their family could have helped them in a genuine and non exploitative manner. Sometimes there’s something nasty going on in those “loving, supportive families” you’re not aware of. > [@](#): > > But when your poor, it can be embarrassing to admit, and asking for help makes it hard to delude yourself into thinking things aren’t so bad. ^ This is an American cultural trait - that asking for help is shameful, that there is something wrong with people who need help. > [@](#): > > But all that is why I’m glad I have the family I do. I’m not in **Broomstick** ’s situation, and I am so glad for that. I mean, who would willingly want that life? And if I was in that situation, I certainly wouldn’t be talking about it on the internet. Because that would be pretty humiliating. More than being poor in the first place. Yeah, sometimes I take quite a lickin’ for daring to speak up. Uppity poor person! The thing is, being poor _shouldn’t_ be humiliating. It shouldn’t be an honor, either, but it shouldn’t be something that makes a person despised by others. > [@monstro](#): > > I’m sure **Broomstick** doesn’t need or appreciate your pity. \*\>cough\< \* Sometimes I do have a teeny-tiny pity party… I don’t get upset when someone says “I’m glad I’m not in your financial situation.” I don’t want to be in this situation, either. I get upset when someone implies I somehow _deserve_ to be in this situation. No, no one “deserves” this. Sometimes it happens anyway. > [@](#): > > You don’t know the family resources she has access to, or how many she’s already exploited. Actually, my dad has been of immense help these past few years, as were my parents-in-law. Unfortunately, my in-laws died years ago, and my dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer recently so that support will be ending. My sister the doctor has pledged to help me, but the relationship of siblings is different than that of parent and child, and my sister and her husband have financial and health issues of their own. One of the problems of aging is that certain of your supportive family disappear with time. > [@](#): > > As a outsider, it seems like family loyalty (her disabled husband) is the thing that’s really holding her back. In terms of pure dollars and cents, she’d be better off cutting loose and going her own way. Yes - although when we met and early in our marriage it was my disabled husband who was the primary breadwinner. Problem is, in addition to disability he now has the mounting problems of age on top of it, and a much tighter job market. In other than dollars and sense value, though, he’s hugely important as emotional support and he takes care of a lot of things that makes it easier for me to concentrate on work or looking for work. Things like renegotiating with our phone/internet company so we’re getting better service for less money. Or taking care of the garbage and some of the cleaning. Researching major purchases so we can get the most bang for our buck. Exterminating vermin that get into the house. Keeping the vehicle maintained or finding affordable repairs. He also is amazing at making a budget we can live with when we’re making next to nothing. He does add value to the household. There’s also the fact that we will sometimes exert more effort for our families than we would for ourselves alone. > [@](#): > > It’s great that you have made a choice to use family to buffer you from the cold, harsh realities of the world. But this could just as easy be a “poor choice” for **Broomstick** or another person. It often is. Yes, and this is why there is no one size fits all solution to these sorts of problems. Everyone has different skills and resources to bring to the problem. > [@](#): > > Maybe figure out what’s going on behind the scenes before you say someone’s life is “humiliating”. I truly do appreciate your defense of my honor, but in this particular case I was not offended. There ARE humiliating aspects to poverty. Actually, I’m thinking of having the spouse approach soup kitchens/pantries in the future - he’s Christian and might be able to get extra sympathy for his disability. I find dealing with the religion-based charities around here maddening, as in, they make me raging angry at least half the time. > [@monstro](#): > > And yet every year, middle- and upper-middle-class people vote against measures that would shore up public schools and public transit. “Everyone else” does NOT need these institutions the same way that the poor does. “Everyone else” has alternative choices they can take advantage of, but not the poor. Maybe not in NYC. But this is what happens just about everywhere else. In Chicago there’s usable mass transit, too. Where I currently live - not nearly so much. But yeah - well off people have alternatives to mass transit, whether it’s a spare vehicle or the ability to pay for a cab or rent a car. Poor people… not so much. > [@](#): > > By the time an adult becomes homeless–whether due to their own fuckuppery or life’s shittiness–what they learned back in one class in the 9th grade probably is not going to help them all that much. They’d do much better having a strengthened social safety net so that homelessness isn’t something they even have to worry about. If you’re couch surfing or living in a relative/friend’s basement on their charity you’re still homeless. You’re just not sleeping-on-the-sidewalk homeless. But yeah - the survival skills for 30 years ago are not entirely applicable to today. Keeping current is important. That’s also why my local library has a crap load of computers and reserves some and some days specifically for job seekers or those looking for assistance, because on-line stuff has become so important that even the poor and homeless need access now. > [@](#): > > That just means social service agencies need to do a better job of reaching out to people. I don’t think this requires changing high school curricula. See my above story about job seekers support in my area. > [@Lakai](#): > > Out of the things you listed I think our government should help your husband find a job and keep your neighborhood safe. To their credit, the local sheriff department has been VERY responsive when we call for help. However, there is some suspicion that the folks next door are still in business due to corruption/payoffs. Hey, we’re near Chicago, government corruption is legendary in this area. > [@](#): > > I don’t think the government should ensure you have enough money to move to a safe neighborhood thought. Well, if the government CAN’T keep the neighborhood safe what’s the alternative for those of us so impoverished? Someone fronting us the security deposit might, in fact, enable us to move to a better area. That might, in fact, be cheaper than funding the police to come out on multiple 911 calls per week. > [@](#): > > I’m a little conflicted on housing and minimum wage because I do not believe the government can do a good job of providing affordable housing or setting the minimum wage. But I confess I do not know much about these issues to be confident in my opinion about them. There have certainly been issues with government housing and minimum wage, however, the free market sure as hell doesn’t do a good job of that, either. > [@](#): > > You know I was not talking about me personally teaching poor people how to handle being poor, right? Yes. You do know the way you phrased that was offensive and condescending? > [@](#): > > I think you can make this argument for any government service. The poor probably benefit the most from having a postal service as well, but I do not consider it a poverty issue. Oddly enough… _faxing_ is a poverty issue. A lot of government applications for assistance have to be either mailed (requiring a significant lead time - when you need to allow 5-10 business days for mail, but you’re given only 10-14 days as a deadline to get together documentation this is an issue) or faxed, but commercial fax services are a dollar or more a page - hey, my latest food stamp application was 15 pages long! So… you had people in dire poverty winding up paying $15-25 or even more to get their application in. OK, to put that perspective, that’s a _week’s worth of food_ for these folks. And they already can’t afford to eat. My state solved this problem by having local “welfare” (they have a fancier name, of course) supplying free faxing for such purposes. End of problem. People can get their documentation in on time and not be constrained by free market fees for the service. Sometimes the solution to a problem is surprisingly simple. > [@](#): > > Like I said up thread, this isn’t what I meant. We do appreciate the clarification. > [@](#): > > This is actually what I meant by teaching people to be poor. Schools should make students think about what they would do should they become homeless. Instead they teach students financial planning with the assumption everyone is middle class trying to get into the upper class. There little to no information about how to jump from poverty to lower-middle class. ^ This. Of course, this would require society to admit that poverty is not always the fault of the poor, and that poverty can happen to anyone. > [@](#): > > And there is absolutely no guidance from our schools, pop-culture, and government on how to make these decisions. You can find articles on how to save money in your IRA, but nothing about how to save when there is no money for rent. ^ This. > [@](#): > > Why do you keep pointing out that I’m not poor. How is that relevant to our conversation? You lack the perspective of personal experience. Personal experience does count. That’s why these discussions need poor people. That’s why committees to deal with poverty need to have poor people at the table. Unless you’ve been there yourself you don’t have the whole picture. Hell, even if you have been there you don’t have the whole picture. > [@](#): > > As an example, take the federal student loan system. You can call their number after hours and get a good explanation of their policies. Schools also have financial advisers on staff who are experts on the student loan system. Don’t you want the same thing for all social programs? Sure - and most programs do have such resources, but they aren’t advertised and it’s hard to find out where to go. That’s because being poor is treated as something shameful and not to be spoken of. > [@Shodan](#): > > My goodness - what a stupid article.What does “I had a boyfriend when my daughter was three” have to do with poverty?None of the cites provided in the article are particularly solid, but I am guessing “in a relationship with” does not include “he paid his child support on time”. A man can only pay child support when he actually has a paycheck. Long term unemployment among certain groups has a huge impact on lack of parental support for children. There is also the problem that social programs are constructed in such a manner that a woman may be better off remaining unmarried and not having a live in boyfriend. For example: with food stamps, all adults in the household need to be either employed or occupied caring for children under 5. If that is not the case benefits can be cut or eliminated _for the entire household_ after three months. Well, if Jamal can’t find a job then having him live with girlfriend+kid might actually jeopardize the ability to buy food for the family. We had that problem with my spouse’s long term lack of job. I wound up physically dragging him to the welfare office to prove he was disabled so we wouldn’t lose our foodstamps. We STILL have that issue come up periodically - why isn’t this man working? I’m looking forward to him “aging out” of that requirement. It’s orders of magnitude worse for able-bodied men. So, yeah, can you blame Jamal if Jamal living down the block rather than with his woman and kids actually makes the food budget more stable for the woman and kids? Isn’t that, in fact, a WISE decision in that circumstance? Maybe we should revise some of these perverse incentives before bitching quite so much about broken families and children out of wedlock. > [@Tuxie](#): > > Depending upon your community you’d be surprised at what programs are available. For example, programs to provide free musical instruments to children who want to be in band but cant afford it. My county has a program to help folks entirely without health insurance to get their prescriptions at a reduced rate. If it weren’t for a local pharmacist who gave a damn we would never have known about it. As an example. > [@](#): > > Plus I’m around some people with money who would be glad to help out a person if they knew of a specific need. There are also sites like GoFundMe were people with needs advertise that need. It helps. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Ok, sorry. I was only trying to help. I know - but it’s frustrating to keep hearing “get section 8” when the people making that suggestion have no clue about a fundamental flaw in the program, which is a 10 year delay in receiving assistance and closed waiting lists. > [@](#): > > Another suggestion, I’ve worked with Christmas in October and other groups that go out to peoples homes and do minor repairs and upgrades. Are there such programs in your community? Yes, but since I’m not the owner I can’t authorize repairs. There are other problems, too, but I don’t want to get bogged down in a discussion of bigotry and political influence/corruption, as well as some dumbass restrictions that make such a group working on a residence owned by a landlord who lives in another county problematic. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707/74 "2015-02-17T14:26:56Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yeah, most media “financial advice” is pretty useless for people making under $100k. I hope you don’t mind me saying that this is preposterous. > [@](#): > > A man can only pay child support when he actually has a paycheck. Long term unemployment among certain groups has a huge impact on lack of parental support for children. This does not change the fact that the article was stupid and mendacious. Read it again, and see the statistic they tried to spin. Roughly two thirds of the mothers they mention had no ongoing relationship with their children’s father, and this was supposed to prove that single mothers weren’t the problem. > [@](#): > > So, yeah, can you blame Jamal if Jamal living down the block rather than with his woman and kids actually makes the food budget more stable for the woman and kids? Isn’t that, in fact, a WISE decision in that circumstance? I am going to need a cite that black fathers usually abandon their children so that they will qualify for welfare before I can decide. Could you provide such a cite? > [@](#): > > Maybe we should revise some of these perverse incentives before bitching quite so much about broken families and children out of wedlock. No, I dont’ think we need to wait for that. These incentives can rather easily be avoided by avoiding unwed parenthood… Which I think is much of the problem in discussions of this kind. Most people in the US are not poor, most poor people in the US do not stay poor, and most people who become poor move out of it (like you). I mean [poo](http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/index.cfm)r, not lower income. Many people, however, were poor, at least officially, at some time in their lives, especially when starting out in life. But they didn’t stay that way, and the things they did to get out of poverty (and the rate of upward mobility in the US has not changed over the last few decades - [Obama was lying when he said so](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/23/business/upward-mobility-has-not-declined-study-says.html?_r=0)) were not particularly onerous. To take the one factor of unwed motherhood - it is not something that just happens. Most people recognize this, but some speak about it as if it were the flu - it just happens. That’s not accurate. Some people think all poor people are lazy and stupid. That’s not true. Some people think all poor people are the helpless victims of circumstance. That’s not true either. We do the public debate a disservice when we pretend either. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707/75 "2015-02-17T14:39:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am going to need a cite that black fathers usually abandon their children so that they will qualify for welfare before I can decide. Could you provide such a cite? This doesn’t directly address your challenge, but you may be interested to know that it is a [myth](http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/01/16/3175831/myth-absent-black-father/) that black fathers abandon their children more than other fathers of similar socio-economics do. But methinks you will say this is “preposterous” as well. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707/76 "2015-02-17T14:46:50Z")
We already dealt with this. Your own cite says - > [@](#): > > black fathers are more likely to live separately from their children This is no better than that other ridiculously dishonest article you linked to earlier. Most black children in the US grow up without the long-term presence of their fathers in their homes. Growing up in a father-absent home correlates with almost every social pathology known to science. These are not myths; they are established facts. Mother Jones and ThinkProgress are lying thru their teeth. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707/77 "2015-02-17T14:58:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We already dealt with this. Your own cite says - > This is no better than that other ridiculously dishonest article you linked to earlier. > > Most black children in the US grow up without the long-term presence of their fathers in their homes. Growing up in a father-absent home correlates with almost every social pathology known to science. These are not myths; they are established facts. > > Mother Jones and ThinkProgress are lying thru their teeth. > > Regards, > Shodan Black fathers are more likely to be poor and unemployed. Duh. But when these poor, shiftless, lazy niggers are compared to their upstanding, morally-upright, hard-working white brethen, they are found to be just as active in their kids’ lives. Surprise. The same as when middle-class and upper-middle class black fathers are compared to middle-class and upper-middle class white fathers. The blacks don’t disproportionately abandon their children when socioeconomics are accounted for. What exactly are Mother Jones and ThinkProgress lying about? And is the CDC also lying? Since you asked for a cite, here’s a report describing the penalty that poor people incur by getting married or cohabiting: [How Welfare Undermines Marriage and What to Do About It | The Heritage Foundation](http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/11/how-welfare-undermines-marriage-and-what-to-do-about-it) Yet again, I await your dismissal. Even though this was produced by (gag) the Heritage Foundation. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707/78 "2015-02-17T15:15:34Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But when these poor, shiftless, lazy niggers are compared to their upstanding, morally-upright, hard-working white brethen, they are found to be just as active in their kids’ lives. Surprise. No, they aren’t. They are not just as active - they are more likely to be absent. That’s what the figures say. > [@](#): > > The blacks don’t disproportionately abandon their children when socioeconomics are accounted for. Wrong. > [@](#): > > [Twelve percent of black families below the poverty line have two parents present, compared with 41 percent of impoverished Hispanic families and 32 percent of poor white families.](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/dec/25/fathers-disappear-from-households-across-america/#ixzz3S11VMuqK) > [@](#): > > Yet again, I await your dismissal. Not dismissal, disproof. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707/79 "2015-02-17T15:24:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, they aren’t. They are not just as active - they are more likely to be absent. They are more likely not to be _married_ to the mother of their children. But despite this, they are just as active in their kids’ lives. Which is surprising. Can’t we agree on that, at least? And I notice you have nothing to say about the Heritage Foundation article. Do you still have doubts about **Broomstick’s** assertion, or are you satisfied? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707/80 "2015-02-17T16:02:45Z")
So - 1. Never have children. If you made a dumb mistake at 16 or 17, it’s your own damn lookout and you should just suck those babies right back into your vagina. Cause god knows, we never made any mistakes at 17. 2. Stick close to your family. Even if your family is abusive. Or what if you’re an immigrant and they live 7,000 miles away? Sucks to be you. 3. Be smart about your money. Even if you are not that smart. I expect you to be at least as smart as me, bitch. 4. Get on Section 8. Even though you probably can’t. 5. Make sure you check all of your neighborhood resources to see if you can score free stuff. Even though you might not have a computer to check, or time to do so, what with working two jobs and taking care of your kids. 6. Update your skills and keep them current. Even though you might not have the money or time to go back to school. And it’s a total crapshoot what skills might be useful or necessary or what skills might have a glut in them. Did I miss anything? I don’t want to subsidize the army or corporations. Yet millions of dollars of tax monies go to both of these behemoths. I accept that there is a percentage of people that will always be poor, and I’d rather not have them starving in the streets. I am OK with some freeloaders as long as the kids get food. And I don’t even have kids! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-less-compassion-for-the-poor/712707.md?page=5)