Do we have less compassion for the poor?

In My Humble Opinion
121

It seems like it should be really simple. But if you’re the type of person who takes their cues from what everyone else is doing, rather than from how much money you have in your bank account, it’s very easy to screw even this up.

Debit cards make it very easy to screw up. I’m a fairly intelligent person who tries to be conscientious, but I’ve overdrafted my checking account on more than one occasion just by getting carried away with that darn debit card (especially during the holidays). When it happens, I pay the $35 overdraft fee and forget all about it. But a person who lives on a small amount of money can’t afford such foolish mistakes. So they’ve got to be even more conscientious than someone who is better off financially.

Which sucks, because they’re already got so many other things to be conscientious about.

122

There is some validity to this. I know white folks who swear up and down that they would NEVER apply for foodstamps, they would starve first, they wouldn’t humiliate themselves like those [insert ethnic slur here]. They’ve somehow gotten the notion that foodstamps are for black people (I’ve actually had several white people tell me that if I try to apply for foodstamps I won’t get them because “they only give those to black people”) or some variety of “those people, not us”. Needless to say, if they fall on hard times this could hurt them badly.

(The truth is that most food stamp recipients are white, because whites are still the majority at any socio-economic level in the US as of this point in time)

White folks really, really seem to hate living with extended family, they view it as a failure. If your enfeebled, elderly parent(s) live with you your making an extraordinary sacrifice (my dad’s arrangement, living with my sister, is seen as aberrant among her peer group as he is still capable of living on his own, and has sufficient financial resources to do so but chooses not to).

While valuing self-sufficiency and independence is great it can be taken to a harmful extreme, just like anything else.

123

Funny, I did all those things too - and yet, now I am, in fact, poor.

So yes, luck does enter somewhat into the equation. You choose not to believe that, but then, apparently all your luck (so far) has been good.

124

I’m sorry - when did this discussion move from “poor people in general” to JUST the “chronically poor”?

Let me assure you that, even though I am temporarily poor I am certainly treated as a multi-generational chronically poor stupid person, assumed to have a half dozen bastards, uneducated, etc. It’s not until I trot out the "raised middle class/college degree/no children/etc.) that I get any sympathy at all. Maybe. Because I’ve had people tell me flat out to my face that I MUST have fucked up somehow if I wound up poor anyway.

The poor are despised in this country, assumed guilty until proven otherwise.

125

My household needs $1100/month to pay for the basics - housing, food, gas so I can get to work, utilities, etc.

Over the past 8 years there have been quite a few months I earned less than that. A few months I earned less than $50, total, from all sources.

How the HELL am I supposed to “spend less money than I take in” when the basic expenses are $1100 and I only made $50?

Yes, clearly I needed to find a job - which I did. Eventually. But meanwhile, WTF is a body supposed to do? Simply not pay the rent? Not eat while waiting for foodstamps to be approved?

Oh, and then there was the employer who refused to give me the wages I had earned - which required a court case. It took me nearly a year to begin to collect those wages.

So - how hard is it to spend less than you take in? It depends on, for one thing, whether or not you have any income. Whether or not your income is sufficient for you basic needs.

The ONLY “safety net” help we get, the ONLY “welfare”, is foodstamps and subsidized healthcare. We get NO housing assistance. NO utility assistance. NO cash assistance. We do not not qualify for housing or utility help. If one of our vehicles breaks down it sits until we can scrape together the money.

It has taken me most of this month to save up enough money to make a trip to see my dying father… and I’m not going to make it. I will have to borrow the money, because this isn’t something that can wait for a year, or two years, for us to slowly raise the money. And, in addition to scrabbling to make the basic costs we will THEN have to pay back that money, somehow, on top of struggling to pay for just the bare necessities. (More detail spoilered for those who’d rather not read the novel-length post)

[spoiler]That’s what being poor really is - not being able to afford to visit a dying parent, worrying whether your 13 year old car is up to the trip, wondering if your home in that deteriorating neighborhood will be broken into while you’re gone, trying to calculate if it is cheaper to take a longer, slower route without tolls or pay for the tolls and only take a day to get there, having to take the time off work without pay because people at your level don’t get paid vacation, wondering if you’ll still have a job when you get back, wondering how the hell you’re going to afford to pay for the gas, finally having to borrow the money and spend a year or more paying off a trip you can’t put off because dad’s not going to live much longer. It’s debating whether you have to sleep in your car in a rest stop rather than check into a hotel because you can’t afford that hotel and if you put it on the card you might not be able to make the monthly payment.

It’s also being afraid to admit any of that for fear someone will castigate you for spending above your means, for paying for it on a credit card even through you struggle to make the minimum monthly payment, being criticized for being so fucking poor that trying to visit your dying father when he’s still aware enough to recognize who you are throws you into debt, being told that it’s irresponsible to take time off work, earning money is more important than your family.

Worse yet, because I can’t quit work for several months, because my elder sister can’t (she is also the chief breadwinner at her house), because my other sister has no transportation, even less income than I do, we may have to ship my spouse off to my sister’s house to care for dad at home as long as possible so we don’t all collectively run out of money. That means all the struggle I currently have but without my chief emotional support. (Also, if he’s gone long enough we’ll lose our food stamps - only one adult in the household, you see, and by my own self I wouldn’t qualify. Which means when he comes back I have to go through the damn application process all over again.)

Now, I’ve been through the dying parent this three times before (both of his and one of mine). It was a HELL of a lot easier to do this when we were middle class, and that wasn’t easy at all. I try to explain this to people and they often go on about how life (and death) is hard for everyone blah, blah, blah - no, it’s harder when your poor. When you’re middle class a long car ride or a plane ticket is annoying, it’s not a financial disaster. Middle class jobs are more likely to follow the rules on things like family leave. Middle class people are more likely either have an emergency fund, or being able to pay off emergency credit card charges, and more likely to have access to things like a credit union to consolidate such things into a lower interest loan (which I did for prior situations like this when middle class). Middle class people are more likely to be able to pay for things like respite care, or home health aides, or various supplies that can make caring for an invalid easier.[/spoiler]

How hard is it to spend less than you bring in? Well, this March I have two choices: I can be responsible (by some peoples’ definition) and work the whole month, not go anywhere, and risk never seeing my father alive again, not to mention leaving the burden of dealing with his final days entirely on the shoulders of just one of my sisters (as the other is so much worse off than I am we already know she can’t help). Or I can spend more than I make and see dad at least one more time before he dies.

And remember - I’m probably one of the more responsible, frugal poor people, highly educated, etc. I probably can figure out a way to make this all work, somehow, but that doesn’t mean everyone in my position could do the same.

It’s pretty damn easy to spend more than I make, because every month I’m right at the edge.

126

I am not trying to insult you but how is that even possible? Your are smart and you have skills. You are talking about sub saharan Africa levels of poor here at about $1.50 a day. Are you seriously claiming that you can’t make $50 a month for anything whatsoever? I have been unemployed too a few times and filled in with odd jobs. I never charged less than $25 dollars an hour and it is was usually closer to $50 an hour. I always had plenty of takers for short to medium term jobs.

If you are willing to work for $10 an hour or more, I have some very nice positions for you in Massachusetts and they aren’t even very hard. You may have to be good at general cleaning but you can make $10 - $20 an hour easily.

127

We had things such as a week of “introduction” to the University, required medical insurance*, a medical center in the University, etc. In theory, there were people to help us. In reality, I think one of the hardest things in life has to be thinking “ok, if I was coming here from such-and-such place, what would I need to know?” and getting it right. Plus of course, the University perceives any out-of-coverage medical care provided to a student as an income: whether that medical care is linked to a worker being out for months is not a connexion that’s made.

We did ask things such as “where else can I get healthcare” and receive “you get healthcare here!” Yeah, very helpful. Ask American students, they had vague ideas about having to “find a doctor” - how? Back home, we would have known where, who and how to ask, but… that was back home.

  • The only foreign student I knew whose foreign insurance was considered valid was a Canadian. We figured it was because his insurer was used to dealing with American companies. My own insurance indicated coverage as “non-elective procedures as defined by Spanish law” and that wasn’t considered acceptable.
128

Too late to add: if you happen to meet an inmigrant who’s having problems getting appropriate gynecological care, point them to PP. Please.

129

You know what that sounds like? The line from “A Christmas Carol” where Scrooge says about the poor “Dont we have enough jails?”.

Yeah those things one should do but people do make mistakes and we as a society need to help them out. For example I’ve worked with half-way houses for guys who are getting out of jail and working to get back into society. We need to build in safety nets so those people dont sink further into poverty and are forced to do bad things.

130

I haven’t read the thread so apologies if this has been addressed. Today we pay roughly 35%-40% of our income to the state. We also have state welfare. We have largely fulfilled our moral duty to the poor with these taxes. When we receive our net pay we have a lot less compassion financially. This is not a post against welfare, but it should come as no surprise that when we pay so much to the state we tend to assume the state, rather than we as individuals, now have ultimate responsibility to the poor.

131

The Great Recession.

For over 30 years I was never unemployed long enough to collect unemployment. I ALWAYS had a new job without 2 weeks. ALWAYS.

Then 2007 hit and two months into unemployment I realized Things Are Different Now.

YES, there were months I earned next to nothing. Why? Because unemployment benefits don’t last forever. Mind you, I took full advantage of the fact that you can work odd jobs and temp jobs while looking for even better employment while on UI. I do hustle. As you say, I am smart and have skills. But most of the odd jobs I could find were things like lawn mowing or working as general labor on construction sites. That meant come November the work pretty much dried up until April. I sold scrap/cans, I sold possessions, and I applied at a LOT of places. The job market was that bad in my area, that’s why at a certain point they stopped requiring proof of work to continue collecting food stamps past three months for a couple years, there were waiting lists to get into job seeking assistance programs, it was very, very ugly.

Remember, I took jobs where the employer refused to pay me and I had to take her to court. The job after that a coworker physically attacked me - and I got a LOT of flack from public aid for “quitting” a job where my physical safety was at risk, I got NO unemployment after that and they threatened to pull my foodstamps. Basically, I took jobs that weren’t just crap, there were illegal things happening and real risks to my person. I wasn’t refusing work, I couldn’t find work a lot of the time.

In addition, there were a couple of other factors working against me:

  1. I am over 45 (actually, at this point I’m in my 50’s). Ageism really does exist

  2. I am female. Sexism exists.

  3. Some of the job skills that supported me for three decades are now obsolete. I did try to keep up with evolving technology, but let’s face it, there is not a market for fast typists, people who can do dictation/transcription (and when that is needed the internet allows it to be outsourced to someplace like India for pennies) and the like which was the mainstay of administrative support for years.

To my advantage I am healthy, I’m stronger than I look, and I look younger than I am. That works as long as I can get face to face with a human being. I am fantastic at selling myself in person, the problem these days it just getting the interview in the first place. I suspect a lot of my job apps were tossed out just based on age but I can’t prove it.

Thank you, but I’m hoping my current position can translate into an actual career ladder in a couple years. I’ve already moved from part to full time and received two raises in less than a year. Since they company is in 5 states there’s a potential for relocating with less risk down the line. If it doesn’t work out, though, I may be sending you a PM. The biggest problem would be relocating - I have no money for moving. I have no money for a security deposit on a new place. And I have a disabled spouse to move.

Despite last night’s bit of a whine (my previous post) things ARE improving for me. It’s just very frustrating, I’d like them to improve faster but reality says most progress will be incremental.

132

You drop in on page 3, admit you haven’t read the thread at all, then arrogantly “solve” the problem? Gee, thanks. :rolleyes:

Yes, all of that has been addressed.

  • Only a tiny fraction of that “35-40%” of your taxes go to the poor. A tiny fraction. The amount was specified earlier, which you would have know if you bothered to read the thread.

  • The bulk of “welfare” goes to, in order 1) kids, 2) mothers of kids, 3) families with kids. Single men and childless couples are left in the cold.

  • Housing assistance is unavailable even to those who would otherwise qualify due to decade-long waiting lists - ALSO previously addressed, which you would know if you had, you know, read the thread.

In other words, you are ignorant, you make assumptions based on your ignorance rather than the facts, you arrogantly march in here to declare that because you pay your taxes you have no more moral obligation towards your fellow human beings (could that be the lack of compassion the thread title refers to?), and you can’t be bothered to read the discussion already in progress.

Why are you here, again?

133

Thank you for the snidey arsed reply. I did not arrogantly solve anything. I gave my opinion as to why we may have less compassion today for the poor than yesteryear. I did not claim there is no poverty today. In fact I said nothing about levels of poverty in my post. But thank you for the stats even though the bear little relation to my actual post.

The amount of money that goes to the poor is of only limited interest to people - that’s why I didn’t bother to mention it. The fact that we *expect *the state to look after the poor is more important. Once you have only 65% of your income actually in your pocket(and a proportion goes to the poor) people consequently have less compassion to share around. It’s Newton’s third law of physics bastardised and transposed to society - that every action has a[roughly]equal and opposite reaction; that public welfare crowds out private welfare.

134

Don’t bother; she’ll come up with an excuse on why she can’t move.

A couple years ago we had a thread where she whined about being poor due to “the lack of jobs in her area.” I suggested she move to SW Ohio, where the types of jobs she was seeking were plentiful. She said she would look in to it. Obviously she didn’t. Had an excuse, I assume.

I know this isn’t the pit, so I’ll do my best to keep this civil: when a person wallows in self pity for an extended period of time, they usually reach a point where they’re reluctant to change, and will actually resist efforts to better themselves. When someone offers them constructive and practical advice, they will come up with 50 reasons on why they can’t pursue it, and then they’ll go back to the self pity routine. (“Poor me, poor me. It’s not my fault, it’s not my fault. Poor me, poor me…”) I don’t fully understand the psychology behind it, but I suspect it has to do with low self esteem or a desire for attention.

135

Or maybe you barely know anything about her situation or anyone else’s except your own. Are you seriously bitching about someone not leaving their home and moving to SW Ohio on your say-so that there are jobs aplenty? When someone is poor, they cannot relocate on a whim. There is no savings to cover the cost of truck rental, gas, housing deposit, utility deposits, etc. There is no money for a plane flight and car rental to go for interviews in advance and scope out the situation. Leaving your well-known area where you are surviving to go to some random part of the country in the hopes of things improving has put many people in the street.
Even if the person miraculously managed to get a job and somehow get there and get settled in, what about friends and family they have left behind? Is their entire existence just supposed to be about getting some job that pays more, everything else in life be damned?
Go ahead, reveal any problems you have in life and I’d be happy to give you all the answers you need to fix them. I’ll start with the most obvious one, mocking people in bad situations: think of a time when someone did not understand what was going on in your life and dickishly made useless suggestions then told everyone you refused to help yourself so deserved what you got. Don’t be that person.

136

A poor person stays in an economically depressed area because she doesn’t have money to move, and because at least she knows she’ll have some food assistance and a roof over her head = poor choice

A poor person moves to another area, far away from the support of family, to capitalize on better job prospects, but fails to find them because of factors beyond her control = poor choice

Choices only become “poor” in retrospect. I know that I have never made a decision knowing it was the wrong one. I’m assuming that most people, even poor people, operate the same way. We all make the choice that our experiences and education and brain chemistry compell us to believe is the best for us, at that moment in time.

Every poor choice I’ve made…someone came along and helped me out of it. And usually I didn’t even have to ask. A compassionate person was able to look past my their prejudices and misconceptions and just help me. I understand that not everyone has the capacity to be empathic. But man, do I wish the folks who are handicapped in this way would sit their asses down somewhere and STFU.

137

No, it is mostly abortion and Plan B.

That’s easily done. Keep in mind we are talking about the number of illegitimate children resulting from rape. There are a bit more than 32K pregnancies from rape each year. About 72% of those either placed the child for adoption, or underwent a spontaneous or induced abortion. So that’s about 9K children. Out of total of almost 4 million pregnancies, that’s considerably less than 0.01%. So yes, pretty close to zero.

Pregnancy is a risk of sex. If you choose to have sex, then you choose to tak the risk of the consequences.

Your analogies are becoming progressively more bizarre. Do you think the risk of pregnancy after unprotected sex is the same as having your house destroyed by a tornado? Or are you suggesting you can avoid tornados by wearing a condom?

No, things that have not happened to me because they are easy to avoid are “easy” to avoid.

No, I can do these things because they are easy.

It’s very easy to put on a condom, or not go to McDonald’s. These things are very simple steps. That’s my point.

Regards,
Shodan

138

So there is no way to tell ahead of time that sex without a condom is a good idea or a bad one? I don’t believe you.

Check your privilege.

Regards,
Shodan

139

Raped teens do not have easy access to either of those things.

No, we are talking about the number of teenage pregnancies resulting from rape. I have read that it is over 20% in the US. I’m not going to provide a cite for that because I don’t have any faith in anyone’s ability to parse that out accurately from the data collected, due to the complications of defining rape for these purposes.

9,000 is actually 9,000 more than zero, so no, not close at all.

Let me help you with your arithmetic. Didn’t you say you’d graduated from high school? Maybe it has been a while, but percentages have not changed. I’ll make this very simple for you.

You say out of the 4,000,000 rape pregnancies, 9,000 result in births.

We set it up like so:

9,000/4,000,000 = x/100

And then we solve for x. We don’t even need a calculator!

4,000,000 x = 900,000

x = 900,000/4,000,000

x = 9/40 So 9/40 % is our answer.

We’ll go ahead and make that a decimal now, so we can see how it compares to your answer.

9/40 = y/100

40 y = 900

y = 900/40 = 90/4 = 45/2 = 22.5

22.5/100 = .225 So .225%, not “less than .01 %” as you claim.

Which makes your claim off by a factor of 22.5! That’s like if you gave someone an interest-free loan of $9000 (basically zero anyway, right?) and he paid you back $400 instead.

Gee, I wonder how those dumb poor people can’t manage to do simple arithmetic and live within their means like you can!

Yes, the RISK, not the consequence. You buy a lottery ticket HOPING to win, not CHOOSING to lose.

No, I am pointing out the flaw in your logic. You say that the fact that YOU have avoided something means that it is easy to avoid. You’ve avoided tornados, I assume. Therefore they too must be easy to avoid, right? Or is the fact that you’ve avoided something actually not proof at all that it is easy to avoid?

How nice and round.

They are easy for YOU. Your math handicap is not nothing, but some people have a lot more to overcome than that which makes these things that are easy for you hard for THEM.

It’s easy to not get pregnant when you are a man. Good job.
It’s easy to bypass McDonalds when you are hungry and go home to eat when you have better food there.
It’s easy to think you’ve succeeded on your own merits and others have failed because they can’t be bothered to try.

Are people that are more successful than you similarly more deserving?

140

From the numbers I have seen, the pregnancy chance of a single act of intercourse is 3% to 5%. Does this mean there are 640,000 to 1 million forcible rapes every year? That would be a bit high, wouldn’t it?

According to the FBI there were 84,376 forcible rapes in 2012. Apply the 5% and you would bet 4K pregnancies. Apply 3% and you would get 2.5K. Not 32K. Where did you get your numbers?