# Do we have the guts to win this war? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2001, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-the-guts-to-win-this-war/90583 "2001-10-30T19:45:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-the-guts-to-win-this-war/90583/21 "2001-10-31T02:31:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > Today, I read Charles Krauthammer’s columns in both [Time](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101011105-181599,00.html) and [The Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9033-2001Oct29.html), and what he said is important. And wrong. I’m terribly disappointed with folks tunnel vision. > [@](#): > > We are pussyfooting in this war and it is costing us credibility with the enemy. > > 1. **We are limiting our fighting to suit Muslim sensitivities.** > Why on earth should we call a halt to fighting for Ramadan? The Arabs had no problems launching the 1973 war against Israel during Ramadan. We never stopped wars before for religious holidays, so why should we stop now? Rubbish. A reducation or quasi-halt in bombing could serve as (a) brief propaganda boost to USA --nota bene, even GB has suggested this (b) time to shift troops and material in place © develop assets in Afghanistan – meaning Afghani allies, payoffs and the like as well as intelligence assets seperate from the compromised Pakistani assets (d) shore up Pakistan in the short term. High value assets are already largely gone, or so one is told. Looking to develop greater ability to control the ground and showing patience does us little harm. Of course stopping bombing and just sitting with thumbs up the butt doesn’t do much good. As to why halt? (That is reduce to support of NA) Because there’s another target. Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda doesn’t = Afghanistan. Outside of Afghanistan is important. Perhaps more important than Afghanistan in the long run. A question, and not an easy or clear one, is does one gain more on focusing on Afghanistan than one loses elsewhere. If an Afghani campain results in more fragile and ultimately collapsing gov’ts in the Mid East then we may not have gained a thing. Now, I’m not necessarily convinced by this, or rather fully convinced. However the framework is necessary: myopic obsession with Afghanistan mistakes a target, a battle for the war. > [@](#): > > 2 **Why are we being so defensive that we are making war on Islam?** > We didn’t start this war. OBL and his murderous goons did when they crashed planes into the WTC, Pentagon, and Pennsylvania. We should not allow this thug and his evil band to take the high road of piety. We don’t want to harm civilians, but the Taliban are hiding behind mosques and schools. If civilians are hurt, it’s the Taliban’s fault, not ours Because most of al-Qaeda exists as undergrounds elsewhere. Mid East governments are in fragile states. Destroying ObL et al in Afghanistan at the price of creating new havens doesn’t advance the destruction or attenuation of al-Qaeda et al. > [@](#): > > 3. **We are restraining our troops from attacking the Taliban front lines.** Why? They are OBL’s allies, and they have put themselves in the way between us and him. OBL and the Taliban have declared total war on the US, but we are fighting a limited war. We risk seeming weak and ineffectual to our enemies. If we do not swiftly and mercilessly hunt down and kill our enemies, we risk even greater catastrophe to our nation. Now this I agree with in part, although only insofar as it goes to not targeting front line. On the other hand a serious problem is lack of good intelligence. We may be having trouble telling who’s Taleban and who’s not. Swift and merciless, yes. But not clumsily and blindly like a stupid giant. Patience and taking the time to develop a good strategy will be worth more than a rushed attack. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-the-guts-to-win-this-war/90583/22 "2001-10-31T02:51:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > 3. **We are restraining our troops from attacking the Taliban front lines.** Why? They are OBL’s allies, and they have put themselves in the way between us and him. I thought the game plan was ‘surgical strikes’ – that means to me helicopter-Special Forces raids on specific locations identified as being the potentially boltholes of the top table. I understand you’re not advocating WW1 style marching towards their trenches/emplacements but I think we could think a little more imaginatively – besides, why would we want to topple the entire regime without having a replacement lined up ? :: _paging Kofi Annan_ :: ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-the-guts-to-win-this-war/90583/23 "2001-10-31T14:28:57Z")
> [@](#): > > If our leaders are stupid enough to send massive numbers of ground troops into insanely hostile terrain and climate, in order to engage an enemy who is fanaticly motivated, knows the terrain, and has no rules then they are…well, I already said stupid, didn’t I. > > If we must, we must. But “glory” be damned! **Elucidator** , don’t put words in my mouth. War has NOTHING to do with “glory,” and I am well aware that “war is sheer hell,” as General Sherman put it. I am talking about the determination, patience, and endurance to follow through with the total destruction of Al-Quaeda. If it takes 20 years to find and kill OBL, then it will take 20 years. The American public seems to lose patience and the govrnment sems to abandon focus in our military actions, given the pattern of our post-Vietnam fighting. > [@](#): > > A reducation or quasi-halt in bombing could serve as (a) brief propaganda boost to USA --nota bene, even GB has suggested this (b) time to shift troops and material in place © develop assets in Afghanistan – meaning Afghani allies, payoffs and the like as well as intelligence assets seperate from the compromised Pakistani assets (d) shore up Pakistan in the short term **Collounsbury** , I note objections 1&4, but 2&3 would, it seems to me, be more beneficial to the Taliban than to our side. I am aware of the danger of Pakistan’s governemnt being swept away by a fundamentalist Islamic coup, but I’m not sure what we can do to support Musharraf’s government. We don’t want him to look more like a puppet of the US. I don’t see other MENA governments being in danger of collapse. Egypt and Saudi Arabia are the most vulnerable, but Mubarak and Princh Abdallah seem to have strong control right now. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-the-guts-to-win-this-war/90583/24 "2001-10-31T15:51:14Z")
I think my problem with the whole thing is the Northern Alliance-from what I understand, they aren’t much better. We could be making a HUGE mistake. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-the-guts-to-win-this-war/90583/25 "2001-10-31T17:05:13Z")
Folks, I know that this is petty but can everyone stop putting a “u” behind the Q in al-Qaida/al-Qaeda/al-Qa’eda etc.? It just drives me batty and I know it’s meaningless over-correction and it shouldn’t bother me … but it’s driving me nuts. (Yes, I know I’m going to be mocked but…) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > > > [@](#): > > > > If our leaders are stupid enough to send massive numbers of ground troops into insanely hostile terrain and climate, in order to engage an enemy who is fanaticly motivated, knows the terrain, and has no rules then they are…well, I already said stupid, didn’t I. > > … > > **Elucidator** , don’t put words in my mouth. War has NOTHING to do with “glory,” and I am well aware that “war is sheer hell,” as General Sherman put it. I am talking about the determination, patience, and endurance to follow through with the total destruction of Al-Quaeda. If it takes 20 years to find and kill OBL, then it will take 20 years. The American public seems to lose patience and the govrnment sems to abandon focus in our military actions, given the pattern of our post-Vietnam fighting. I for one have the impression that the planners are not so stupid, per elucidator’s sketch. Although on the other hand, I also have the impression that the public is far too conditioned by action movie scenarios to understand this. I’ve argued elsewhere and will do so here, a massed invasion and occuption of Afghanistan is a terrible mistake. The risks and downsides (local, regional, global) are far greater than the sketchy benefit (supposition that it will get us Bin Laden and that getting ObL _solves_ the al-Qaeda issue.) > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > A reducation or quasi-halt in bombing could serve as (a) brief propaganda boost to USA --nota bene, even GB has suggested this (b) time to shift troops and material in place © develop assets in Afghanistan – meaning Afghani allies, payoffs and the like as well as intelligence assets seperate from the compromised Pakistani assets (d) shore up Pakistan in the short term > > **Collounsbury** , I note objections 1&4, but 2&3 would, it seems to me, be more beneficial to the Taliban than to our side. I disagree strongly. Frankly, it seems clear to me that we have distressingly little in the way of on-the-ground intelligence or assets. For Afghanistan and for MENA generally. We need more lang. speakers with on the ground exp. in place. Fighting blind (and I am strongly of the opinion that to achieve what actually needs to be achieved satellites and LD imaging do not cut the cake, over-reliance on this shit is part of our problem.) does us more harm than good. In order to use Special Ops and certainly larger but mobile units properly, I am certain we need to have good intel. With good intel, I don’t see the Taleban being capable of out-smarting our targeting (ground not air) or ObL being able to hide long-term. W/O good intel, we have morass, we have invasion and nationalist reaction, we have long-term probable gains for al-Qaeda. A limited Ramadan pause may (uncertainly in all things now are high) give us cover also in Ouzbekistan. Ramadan is really important. Of course it’s rank hypocrisy on the part of many Muslims to pretend fighting is not done in Ramadan, but if we can turn it to our advantage, then exploit the opp. I further am of the opinion that the most important things to be done now (in the next 3 months) are external to Afghanistan. Shoring up Pakistan cooperation --getting some further moves to shut down the border which may be impossible with Ramadan full-out bombing-- is probably more important for denying Taleban material than using expensive bombs on cheap trucks that happen to move. I repeat then, Krauthammer et al are misiconcieving this war as WWII bis or perhaps Korea bis. It ain’t. > [@](#): > > I am aware of the danger of Pakistan’s governemnt being swept away by a fundamentalist Islamic coup, but I’m not sure what we can do to support Musharraf’s government. Care. And understand that his government could go the other way (w/o perhaps so declaring). Not clear to me either, in the end. > [@](#): > > We don’t want him to look more like a puppet of the US. I don’t see other MENA governments being in danger of collapse. Egypt and Saudi Arabia are the most vulnerable, but Mubarak and Princh Abdallah seem to have strong control right now. Short term, no. Medium term, I am not at all convinced. But I’m suggesting a pull-back and cessation of coop rather than collapse. Egypt in particular is sitting on a mountain of anger. That I can tell you from personal observation. Mubarek is not playing a cagey game for nothing. Cairo was already seething over the intifada. Mubarek enters into this situation already with (a) little real popularity (b) shakey economy that is going to take a major hit because tourist revenues are going away © a signif segement of the population seething over percieved ‘pro-Israeli’ stance of the government. I may be being overly negative on the risk profile for Saudiyah and Egypt but I feel a need to counteract complacency in re the situation. These events have cut loose all frameworks. I was just chatting yesterday with the head risk person at one of the petrol majors. We had the same feeling that far too many folks just are not grasping the degree to which old moorings have been cut loose. Not to argue for paralyzation, fuck no. But serious thought. Final note in guin and the NA not being ‘good guys’: I said it once, I’ll say it again. There are no good choices in Afghanistan. **Only bad and worse.** Nobody in Afghanistan has virgin births. No one we’re going to deal with is going to be nice, even by the low standards of MENA, and those that are PC don’t got the oomph on the ground. \*\* Fuck \*\* whether NA is “better” – by what bloody standards? What does one expect in a country that’s been at war since 1979?-- than the Taleban. They ditch al-Qaeda, are open to hunting down ObL for a cool few mill? Marhaben bikum ya Ikhwani. We don’t have many good choices. Obviously taking time to develop assets in the Pashtun areas is necessary --although I hope we are not going to be slaves to Paki prefs, delicate balancing there. I’ll state up front, in my career in MENA I’ve had to deal with -directly but more often indirectly- bad people. People that I am sure are responsible for things so bad I don’t want to imagine them. Well, that’s part of the region. Even the good guys usually have skeletons. And those that don’t usually have no power. So what do you do? You forge the fuck ahead and watch out. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-the-guts-to-win-this-war/90583/26 "2001-10-31T18:07:55Z")
Quite correct, **Gobear** , upon review. _Mea Fuckup_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-have-the-guts-to-win-this-war/90583.md?page=1)