Do we have time to get paper trails on electronic voting machines before November?

The problem is, only Democrats seem concerned about the possibility of fraud.

Republicans are ignoring the issue, or offering apologies in support of the corporations, all of which have significant GOP ties. Basically, they don’t want to upset one of their constituents. Possibly, secretly, they might also think that election fraud with the electronic machines is likely to help the GOP, and so they’re ok with it.

It’s bizarre that voting security and its related issues–transparency and verification–have become a partisan issue.

Why are Repubulicans so blase about ensuring secure and fair elections?

They aren’t. In Florida, they’ve taken decisive action.

They’ve told Republican voters to use a paper ballot.

Interesting. I wonder if it’s because they’re afraid the electronic results may get trashed (as a result of having been deemed unreliable), but they might somehow manage to retain the absentee results.

Then again, it may be some Pub official’s legitimate concern about hacking issues and such.

A piece of paper into a slot in a cardboard box. Would that be so hard to put in place by November?

From laigle’s link…

Sorry if this takes things off into a tangent but… is the mailer trying to imply that the “liberal Democrats” are the ones responsible for the lack of a paper trail?

:confused:

LilShieste

Now there’s a straight line if I ever saw one…

Interesting . . . according to this story, there seems to be an internal division – or maybe just plain confusion – within the Florida GOP on this issue:

Right BG, but how is that different than what you could do with an analogue machine?? Again, there isn’t anything new here, or anything that can’t be done already with the existing machines. People have been dinking with the elections as long as there has been a democracy. What we have to hope is that its kept to a minimum, and that both sides are cheating in a minor way…and cancel each other out. I have to think that if there was a MAJOR effort to ‘steal’ the election, it would be fairly easy to expose.

I see nothing inherently different about the electronic voting machines except people don’t understand them as well. Can they be subverted? Sure they can. So can the analogue machines. So can paper ballots for that matter. If there is a way to cheat people will find it. HOPEFULLY we will have measure to keep the numbers down to a minimum so that it doesn’t really effect the election process, especially on a national scale.

Because some Democrats are opperating under the delusion that the last election was ‘stolen’ from them. However I know Republicans that are equally worries that the Democrats are going to try and ‘steal’ the election this time. I don’t think that the majority of Democrats REALLY think there is some vast Republican conspiricy to steal the election from them this time. Perhaps I’m wrong about that, but I think the majority of them are rational.

Why am I (a non-Republican/non-Democrat) blase about it? Well, I’m pretty impervious to conspiricy theories usually, and I think extraordinary claims need extraordinary proofs. I’ve yet to see any. Basically if this was real, I would expect the OFFICIAL Democrat party line to be ‘don’t use them’, and that they would OFFICIALLY be screaming their bloody heads off and there would be some serious investigations going on from the offical Democrat party. Unless you are claiming they are in on it?? Because if this were real, it would be in their best interests to make sure they didn’t get cheated out of the elections. Whats Kerry’s official position on the machines? Again, I’ve heard nothing about him encouraging people not to use them. WHy is that?

I know some of you take it as an article of faith that the Republicans are going to cheat you out of the election this time, but so far I’ve seen nothing extraordinary about the level of cheating going on. I take it as an article of faith that both sides will do whatever they can to win, and also that both sides will keep an eye on the other to make sure that nothing too overt happens that robs them of the election. When I see as the official position of either party that they are seriously investigating electronic voting machine fraud as a systematic way to cheat, then I’ll sit up and take a bit more notice of this issue. Until then I’m filing this under the same circular file I reserve for the Kennedy assasination and all the other conspiricy theories floating about…

-XT

I think this is a big issue. Risks come in from hackers, bugs corrupt vendors, etc.

But more importantly, these machines will no doubt undermine confidence in the electoral process, and that’s just what the U.S. doesn’t need for its first presidential election after a very close and divisive one. Even if the machines work perfectly and the votes are counted accurately, if the election is close you just KNOW that accusations of vote fixing will be flying fast and furious. These machines need a paper trail just for that purpose. If the faith in electronics breaks down, we need to be able to go back to the paper record for verification.

In fact, I’d go a step further and say that after everyone votes, they are given a unique ID. This ID is attached to their name and address, and in a disputed election an auditor would pull a random sampling of IDs, contact the voters, and verify that they voted as the machine says they did. After you vote, the machine prints out two copies, both of which contain the way you voted, and your ID. You keep one copy, the other you drop in the slot. The ones dropped in the slot go into a secure storage location. The votes can be tallied electronically, and checked with a random audit against the stored paper slips. In the case of a very close and disputed election, the paper slips can be counted. Since they are printed by computer, they can be printed to be machine readable so the count should go very quickly.

A very easy way to validate a machine count of paper slips would be to have a machine that sorts the slips into separate bins by party vote. A simple weighing of each bin on an accurate scale would be enough to cross-check the machine counts. Or you could bundle them and measure the bundles.

There have to be tons of ways ot prevent fraud while bringing the advantage of computerization to the election system.

Read the article cited in the OP, and posts in this thread. Everybody who really understands computers (in which company I do not place myself) seems to agree that it is much, much easier to fake results and erase tracks with an electronic system than with any other kind of voting system.

No, x, that is not a delusion.

Yes, you are wrong about that, and Democrats who fear this are perfectly rational. Greg Palast is a very rational man. So are all the other activists (Democrat and otherwise) mentioned in the article cited in the OP, whose websites you can and should visit, and who are demanding the establishment of a verifiable paper trail.

In general terms, I agree. The challenge is to do this, and still preserve the principle of the secret ballot – which was established to make sure no citizen’s votes could be influenced by threats or bribes.

As neither the article nor anyone else in this thread is intimately familiar with either the code being used or the exact configuration/setup of the infrastructure you can take it all with a grain of salt BG. I gave some pretty basic things that could be done to minimize the chances of hacking the systems (from the outside)…unless these people are clueless idiots that designed the systems, I’m sure they are taking precautions. I’ve seen nothing to indicate they aren’t. So, we are back to conspiricy theories about the manufacturers embedding things in the software or otherwise rigging the results. Again, I’ve seen nothing substantial that indicates this…its all pure speculation.

Obviously I disagree. Again, I’ve seen nothing that indicates the election in 2000 was ‘stolen’ from the Democrats. Both parties were scrambling and doing everything they could to get their guy in the white house after an anamoly made it possible for a single state to decide the outcome. We could (and have) go back and forth on this but I remain unconvinced. Again, my thought is, if this is REAL, why isn’t the Democrat PARTY doing something substantial about it, why haven’t THEY level real charges against the Republicans?

Whats the offical party line BG? Why aren’t the official party Democrats making such statements, doing offical inquiry’s and making statements about potential fraud? WHy aren’t they offically urging voters to use absentee ballots or otherwise halting the use of these machines?? Wouldn’t it be in their best interests, if they REALLY suspected Republican fraud to ‘steal’ the election, to get this out to the public, to get a hue and cry going? Are they powerless against the Republican onslaught?? If so, then why would the Republicans NEED to rig the election? They are already in control.

Sorry, my BS detector kit is ringing bells on this one, and I remain unconvinced. I don’t think the companies who put these systems together are stupid enough to make the hacking of these things easy, nor do I think there is a vast Republican conspiricy to rig the election.

If I see some REAL evidence (from unbiased sources), or if I see the official Democrat party making noises about this thing then I’ll re-evaluate and perhaps change my mind.

All that said, I think it would be smart in THIS election to not use these machines, as much as I’d like to see us progress to a digital voting and tallying system (I think they will be more accurate in the long run than the BS we have had in the past), for some of the reasons Sam Stone used. Basically the neo-luddites among us, as well as the skitish Democrats would rest easier if we went back to what they know and understand, and for this vital election thats the old clunky machines…or even paper ballots. After this election maybe they can start introducing technology slowly so as not to scare off the electorate.

-XT

BTW, just to quickly clarify my ‘neo-luddite’ assertion, I was talking about BOTH parties on that, as from laigle’s cite the Republicans are just as skitish about the things…and for probably much the same reason. They don’t understand the things, seems like magic. For all concerned I think it would be best for THIS election if they didn’t use the things and brought out the butterfly ballots…those worked SO well last time. Perhaps they could instead have colored stones in Florida that you can drop into a barrel…black for Bush and white for Kerry. :slight_smile: THAT would really make the masses feel better I’m sure. They could perhaps tally the votes on clay tablets…

-XT

The difference is that mechanical voting machines can be examined by laymen. You can just open up the machine and see that the lever for Bush is, in fact, connected to the counter for Bush. With an electronic machine, there are a number of places where rogue code could alter the counts, and you’d probably need multiple programmers (and possibly electrical engineers) to make sure that all the code is kosher and there are no other programs or circuits interfering.

Just looking at the source code isn’t enough, as Ken Thompson proved.

As I said earlier, its possible to do from the inside…but it would be difficult to do on one’s own and make it transparent and undetectable. I also conceed that electronic voting machines are more complex beasts than the old analogue machines, so take experts to oversee them as opposed to your ‘laymen’. The very complexity would make them more difficult to verify…but not impossible. I think the trade offs for more potential accuracy and swifter reporting outweigh the extra effort it would take to verify that the machines were opperating as expected though…but thats just my own opinion. I hate the thought of the US continueing to use machines from the turn of the last century in the digital age.

Again, its do-able, but I think that altering the election would be a bit more difficult to do transparently and undetectably than the coding problem in the article. Impossible? No…but more difficult.

-XT

I’m not really worried about individual hackers breaking into voting machines. I’m worried about the possibility that a lot of people might conspire to rig the voting process.

It may not be impossible, but it’d be prohibitively expensive to examine every bit of code and every circuit on every voting machine.

That’s the problem. It’s reasonable to thoroughly inspect every mechanical voting machine, but it’s unreasonable to expect that every electronic machine will be checked as thoroughly.

As a voter, I don’t think the benefits of electronic voting outweigh the security issues. Knowing the result a day sooner doesn’t mean much if I can’t trust the result.

The technology for electronic voting machines has been out there for decades. If the rest of the world is still using paper ballots, don’t you think they might have a good reason? :wink:

Only slightly more difficult. Ken Thompson’s back door worked because no one thought to check the binary code of the compiler. An insider attacking a voting machine only has to alter some component that no one will have time to check.

An attacker only has to target one part of the machine, but an inspector has to thoroughly check every part.

Wouldn’t this be like a virus scan? If you had the pattern of the original code, I’d think it wouldn’t be THAT hard to scan the code (firmware or software) to see if it had been changed. Also, do you know for a fact that the software is directly changable? Could the machine manufacturers be using ROM burned in? This would make upgrading a physical replacement process but eliminate the ability to do what you are suggesting. Again, I don’t know if they are doing this, but it IS possible to eliminate this threat (that is, eliminate the threat of an OUTSIDE party or parties hacking your system).

Because the ‘rest of the world’ has no immunity from being neo-luddites also?? :slight_smile: I’m not sure that there is a good reason ‘the rest of the world’ is not using electronic voting machines…or that the US has to follow this lead. I’m pretty sure that a reasonably safe and secure electronic voting system could be created. Whether or not THIS voting system meets that criteria I don’t really know as I don’t really know all the relevant details on its security, structure or setup and deployment. I have to assume that the designers would have thought of all the things we have…they aren’t stupid.

-XT

Sure… if you have a device that can read the code off of a ROM chip and compare it. Is there going to be one at every polling station, along with the tools and expertise to open the machine and get at the right chips?

ROM can be replaced in a few minutes, with inexpensive tools.

But even if you make sure a third party can’t replace the chip with his own, what’s stopping a crooked manufacturer from running off a few units with different ROM? Or a different hard drive controller, or memory controller?

That’s not the important threat.

But what reason is there to switch from a system that works to a question mark that adds no real value? Voting is too important to overhaul just for the sake of cutting-edginess; if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

And there’s another problem with electronic voting machines - no one knows all the relevant details except the designers of each component that makes up the system. On the other hand, it’s easy to learn all there is to know about paper ballots or mechanical voting machines.

This wouldn’t be the first time a company has withheld knowledge of its products’ shortcomings.

It also assumes that the person within the company responsible for verifying the integrity of the system wants a system with integrity. That’s a pretty large assumption.

Deibold election machines in Dallas County, Texas, register straight-party votes marked for Democrats as straight-party votes for Republicans. A recount was impossible because there was no paper trail, so the “error,” if it was an error, was corrected, presumably, and the misregistered votes were included in the final vote totals. People were disenfranchised – no, worse, they were defauded into voting against the candidates of their choice.

Of course, Deibold is the company whose CEO is a brazenly partisan Republican.

How could this possibly be acceptable to anyone who even gives a half a damn about fair elections?

Update: From In These Times, August 24, 2004, “Sum of a Glitch:
Evidence shows that machines might be the real swing voters this November,” article by Bev Harris, http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/sum_of_a_glitch/: