# Do we know how Bob Jones University defined race? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 23, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788 "2015-03-23T16:31:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/1 "2015-03-23T16:31:46Z")
From about 1975 until 2000, Bob Jones University discouraged and banned interracial dating. I don’t really get it, but it did occur. How did they define race? White, Black, Asian, everything else? Or did they have an organized system? Anyone know how it was defined? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/2 "2015-03-23T17:47:12Z")
Dunno. I looked up the SCOTUS case that resulted from their policies (the court found the gov’t could revoke their tax-exempt status if they continued the policy), figuring they’d cite the rule in question. The do, but it doesn’t really go into any detail on what constitutes “inter-racial” Here’s the rule as cited in the SCOTUS case > [@](#): > > ``` > There is to be no interracial dating. > > "1. Students who are partners in an interracial marriage will be expelled. [461 U.S. 574, 581] > > "2. Students who are members of or affiliated with any group or organization which holds as one of its goals or advocates interracial marriage will be expelled. > > "3. Students who date outside of their own race will be expelled. > > "4. Students who espouse, promote, or encourage others to violate the University's dating rules and regulations will be expelled." App. in No. 81-3, p. A197. > > ``` [/quote] The same case had another Christian School that was also fighting the same IRS rule, and their definition of race is given. Since they seem to be working from a similar religious tradition as Bob Jones, I suspect their definition is pretty similar. > [@](#): > > According to the interpretation espoused by Goldsboro, race is determined by descendance from one of Noah’s three sons - Ham, Shem, and Japheth. Based on this interpretation, Orientals and Negroes are Hamitic, Hebrews are Shemitic, and Caucasians are Japhethitic. Cultural or biological mixing of the races is regarded as a violation of God’s command. App. in No. 81-1, pp. 40-41. So “Black + Oriental” OK, but “Jew + anybody” or “white + anybody” not cool. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/3 "2015-03-23T17:52:22Z")
> [@](#): > > According to the interpretation espoused by Goldsboro, race is determined by descendance from one of Noah’s three sons - Ham, Shem, and Japheth. Based on this interpretation, Orientals and Negroes are Hamitic, Hebrews are Shemitic, and Caucasians are Japhethitic. 😕This place hands out degrees in biology or other sciences?! ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/4 "2015-03-23T19:47:50Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > The same case had another Christian School that was also fighting the same IRS rule, and their definition of race is given. What is the other school? ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/5 "2015-03-23T19:52:41Z")
I wonder if the other one could have been Liberty University another crazy right-wing Christian university. I had a friend that went there years ago and they had ridiculous rules like no holding hands and no watching rated R movies, why anyone would willingly go to such an institution is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/6 "2015-03-23T19:58:27Z")
My first though was maybe they adapted the time-tested rule to say if one grandparent was non-white, you are non-white. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/7 "2015-03-23T21:18:43Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Dunno. I looked up the SCOTUS case that resulted from their policies (the court found the gov’t could revoke their tax-exempt status if they continued the policy), figuring they’d cite the rule in question. The do, but it doesn’t really go into any detail on what constitutes “inter-racial” > … It is interesting to consider how they would have handled it practically on a day-to-day basis. Did they have a Board of Racial Classification that identified every student, staff, and faculty with a race label that went into their records as a matter of course, or did they only adjudicate one’s race if and when a complaint was filed alleging inter-racial dating? What was your official “race” if you were multi-racial? If your dad was Japanese and your mom was Polish, were you supposed to date Asians or Europeans? What about if your dad was Polish and your mom Japanese? What if your dad was half Korean and half Arab, and your mom was 1/4 French, 1/4 Zulu, 1/4 Australian Aborigine, and 1/4 Jewish? I wouldn’t want to be on _that_ Racial Classification Panel. Could a half-Japanese and half-Polish student date someone who was half-Vietnamese and half-Irish? And if race was only adjudicated as part of the discipline process, was there a defense of lack of knowledge or intent? E.g. “I didn’t know I was Hamitic - my dad said that we were descended from Japheth. I am not guilty of _knowingly_ violating the interracial dating policy.” And what if you were adopted? Did you automagically take on the race of your adoptive parents, or were you judged by appearances (yep, the contours of your nose _so_ say you are Jewish, or such says the Board)? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/8 "2015-03-23T22:25:10Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > It is interesting to consider how they would have handled it practically on a day-to-day basis. Did they have a Board of Racial Classification that identified every student, staff, and faculty with a race label that went into their records as a matter of course, or did they only adjudicate one’s race if and when a complaint was filed alleging inter-racial dating? My WAG is that it probably didn’t actually come up that often. The school only has like 2000 students, and I’ll go out on a limb and venture that the sorts of people who found themselves going to BJU during the time period in question probably weren’t super into fraternizing outside their ethnic group (that ethnic group probably being white, the school didn’t desegregate until the mid-70’s) regardless of what the rules said. Plus other rules regarding behavior at BJU were (and are) crazy strict. No handholding, watching mainstream movies or listening to pop-music. Chances are if the school catches you dating someone they disapprove of, they can just toss you for some other infraction rather than having to argue who is or isn’t a decedent of Japheth. And regardless of whatever biblical justification was used, the actual reason for the rules is pretty plainly to keep whites and blacks from having romantic relationships. I doubt they really cared if someone was half-Korean or not as long as it wasn’t to blatant (and how blatant can you be if handholding is forbidden). > [@Mahaloth](#): > > What is the other school? Goldsboro Christian Schools. Some sort of private school network in NC, apparently (not a University). ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/9 "2015-03-23T22:34:22Z")
> [@grude](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > According to the interpretation espoused by Goldsboro, race is determined by descendance from one of Noah’s three sons - Ham, Shem, and Japheth. Based on this interpretation, Orientals and Negroes are Hamitic, Hebrews are Shemitic, and Caucasians are Japhethitic. > > 😕This place hands out degrees in biology or other sciences?! So if I can trace my ancestry back to Ham, and my date’s is traced to Shem or Japeth, we have a problem. I can trace mine back to a bigafootasausus, so I’m not worried. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/10 "2015-03-23T22:36:35Z")
From [here](https://colleges.niche.com/bob-jones-university/diversity/): Facts & Statistics African American 1% Asian 2% Hispanic 5% International 5% Native American 0% White 79% Unknown 4% Except for the low number of blacks, looks like America circa 1970. Not sure what “international” means since some of them could be white… ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/11 "2015-03-24T00:09:23Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Goldsboro Christian Schools. Some sort of private school network in NC, apparently (not a University). Goldsboro Christian Schools was a K-12 school run by the Second Baptist Church in Goldsboro, NC. It was founded in 1963 and didn’t accept black students. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/12 "2015-03-24T00:22:50Z")
> [@pool](#): > > I wonder if the other one could have been Liberty University another crazy right-wing Christian university. I had a friend that went there years ago and they had ridiculous rules like no holding hands and no watching rated R movies, why anyone would willingly go to such an institution is beyond me. Those rules don’t seem too bad for a Christian university. I want to say Bob Jones encourages students to turn each other in for merits or something like that. It’s pretty extreme. I have two friends who went there, but only for a short time. One found the rules crazy, the other was totally uncomfortable turning in his friends. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/13 "2015-03-24T00:55:15Z")
> [@grude](#): > > 😕This place hands out degrees in biology or other sciences?! I imagine anyone can hand out a degree in biology or other sciences. Accreditation by what organization would be the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/14 "2015-03-24T02:25:29Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > From about 1975 until 2000, Bob Jones University discouraged and banned interracial dating. I don’t really get it, but it did occur. > > How did they define race? White, Black, Asian, everything else? > > Or did they have an organized system? > > Anyone know how it was defined? I’m envisioning a scene similar to that in Frank Pierson’s _[Conspiracy](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0266425/)_ with a Kenneth Branagh-esque chancellor making fine distinctions between various degrees of racial classification before suggesting “evacuating” non-whites entirely. > [@grude](#): > > 😕This place hands out degrees in biology or other sciences?! Of course! What better way to validate your idology than by enshrouding it in the veils of pseudoscientific language to give it the appearance of legitimacy? That no one actually familiar with population genetics would argue that the prototypical classifications of ‘race’ (which have varied radically with social acceptabilty of various minority ethnic groups in mainstream populations) have any practical meaning at all in terms of distinguishing the mean characteristics of said group is of no interest to bigots and the intentionally obtuse. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/15 "2015-03-24T03:00:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > From [here](https://colleges.niche.com/bob-jones-university/diversity/): > > Facts & Statistics > > African American 1% > Asian 2% > Hispanic 5% > International 5% > Native American 0% > White 79% > Unknown 4% > > Except for the low number of blacks, looks like America circa 1970. Not sure what “international” means since some of them could be white… Those unknowns are screwed. Or not screwed, which makes them screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/16 "2015-03-24T04:11:22Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I can trace my ancestry back to Ham I can only trace my ancestry back to Pork. (They weren’t rich enough to take the cure, you see.) Some of my best friends can also trace their ancestry back to Pork. (They’re Reform.) ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/17 "2015-03-24T04:56:51Z")
My early ancestors apparently were Porkish. My father was Hamish. My descendants will be Bacon. What am I? > [@grude](#): > > 😕This place hands out degrees in biology or other sciences?! Okay, a serious question: Among the better-known Christian Universities (in particular, Bob Jones and Liberty), do they in fact have an established reputation for their teaching of various fields of science? And if so, what is that reputation? (ETA: Is this question a fit subject for a new thread?) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/18 "2015-03-24T07:05:19Z")
Depends on what you mean by “Christian”. Are you talking about fundy schools, or all Christian schools, such as Catholic ones, like Notre Dame or Boston College? Trust me, there’s a huge difference. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/19 "2015-03-24T11:33:41Z")
The only things I know about Liberty University are: 1. Jerry Falwell was either the founder or a huge part of it. 2. They have had the champion debate team a few times. Otherwise, no idea. Bob Jones is just famous for being really strict. I’m not sure what their known for otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/20 "2015-03-24T14:02:39Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Dunno. I looked up the SCOTUS case that resulted from their policies (the court found the gov’t could revoke their tax-exempt status if they continued the policy), figuring they’d cite the rule in question. The do, but it doesn’t really go into any detail on what constitutes “inter-racial”… They didn’t have to, because they freely admitted that it was their policy and that they were going to stick with it. The trial court cited exactly the same rules in its decision: > [@](#): > > After May 29, 1975, plaintiff rested upon the following disciplinary rules to protect its religious beliefs: > > There is to be no interracial dating. > > 1. Students who are partners in an interracial marriage will be expelled. > 2. Students who are members of or affiliated with any group or organization which holds as one of its goals or advocates interracial marriage will be expelled. > 3. Students who date outside their own race will be expelled. > 4. Students who espouse, promote, or encourage others to violate the University’s dating rules and regulations will be expelled. > > Bob Jones Univ. v. United States, 468 F. Supp. 890, 895 (D.S.C. 1978) What’s most interesting about this case (now) is that it would probably be decided in the other direction if heard today, thanks to the RFRA. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788.md?page=2)