# Do we know how Bob Jones University defined race? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 23, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788 "2015-03-23T16:31:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/21 "2015-03-24T16:53:37Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > The only things I know about Liberty University are: > > 1. Jerry Falwell was either the founder or a huge part of it. > > 2. They have had the champion debate team a few times. > > Otherwise, no idea. > [@](#): > > [On December 9, 2009, Chancellor Jerry Falwell Jr. announced that "Liberty University has received Level VI accreditation from the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools (SACS). This is the highest classification from SACS and is reserved for colleges and universities that offer four or more doctoral degrees.[62] Liberty is also accredited by: American Bar Association (ABA) [63] Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET)[63] National Council for Accreditation of Teacher Education (NCATE)[63] Commission on Collegiate Nursing Education (CCNE)[63] Aviation Accreditation Board International (AABI) [64] National Association of Schools of Music (NASM) [65] Commission on Accreditation of Athletic Training Education (CAATE),[63] Accreditation of Allied Health Education Programs (CAAHEP).[63]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_University#Accreditation) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/22 "2015-03-24T17:11:31Z")
> [@](#): > > After May 29, 1975, plaintiff rested upon the following disciplinary rules to protect its religious beliefs: > > There is to be no interracial dating. > > 1. Students who are partners in an interracial marriage will be expelled. > 2. Students who are members of or affiliated with any group or organization which holds as one of its goals or advocates interracial marriage will be expelled. > 3. Students who date outside their own race will be expelled. > 4. Students who espouse, promote, or encourage others to violate the University’s dating rules and regulations will be expelled. > > Bob Jones Univ. v. United States, 468 F. Supp. 890, 895 (D.S.C. 1978) Now I’m wondering how they define “dating.” Can I go to dinner with my black friend? Can I go to her dorm room for a movie? Can I have sex with her if I’m not “dating” her? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/23 "2015-03-24T20:12:00Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Now I’m wondering how they define “dating.” Can I go to dinner with my black friend? Can I go to her dorm room for a movie? Can I have sex with her if I’m not “dating” her? Good point. Some conservative Christian churches distinguish “dating” from what they see as a more-appropriate “[courtship](http://www.amazon.com/Kissed-Dating-Goodbye-Joshua-Harris/dp/1590521358)” process. So perhaps you could argue, "I wasn’t _dating_ her, I was _courting_ her \<3. Activities other than dating can’t, by definition, constitute “interracial dating”. The difference between “dating” and “courtship” (which they commonly see as including parents as mediators and protectors, and which is not supposed to be for “fun”, but only for finding a spouse) is obviously great enough for some Christian writers and preachers to draw a difference, so I’m not sure how BJU would take an argument along that lines. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/24 "2015-03-24T22:10:09Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Now I’m wondering how they define “dating.” Can I go to dinner with my black friend? Can I go to her dorm room for a movie? Can I have sex with her if I’m not “dating” her? Sex before marriage is banned by Bob Jones. I am not sure about holding hands or kissing. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/25 "2015-03-24T22:39:21Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > The difference between “dating” and “courtship” (which they commonly see as including parents as mediators and protectors, and which is not supposed to be for “fun”, but only for finding a spouse) is obviously great enough for some Christian writers and preachers to draw a difference, so I’m not sure how BJU would take an argument along that lines. If they forbid interracial marriage, and “courtship” is only for the purpose of finding a spouse, then one would expect interracial courtship to be forbidden too. If “dating” is for “fun” and not for finding a spouse, then why would interracial dating be banned? Because premarital “fun” is also banned, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/26 "2015-03-25T01:18:59Z")
I’m doing a little reading and am surprised to learn that Bob Jones did not admit Black people as students(or, I assume, staff) until 1971. Asians were always allowed as students. It makes me wonder if the main problem was with Black people. For some reason. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/27 "2015-03-25T13:04:39Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > … > > > [@](#): > > > > According to the interpretation espoused by Goldsboro, race is determined by descendance from one of Noah’s three sons - Ham, Shem, and Japheth. Based on this interpretation, Orientals and Negroes are Hamitic, Hebrews are Shemitic, and Caucasians are Japhethitic. Cultural or biological mixing of the races is regarded as a violation of God’s command. App. in No. 81-1, pp. 40-41. > > … So according to the Bible and the fundies, the three races are in fact rooted in three _brothers of common parents_. So either they believe in evolution and hence ongoing evolution since Noah is the reason the races are different now, OR they believe there has been no evolution of races since then and therefore that Noah and his wife bore three kids each of different race _ab initio_. I know Logic was never these idiots’ strong suit but Jeez!! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/28 "2015-03-25T13:57:39Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > So according to the Bible and the fundies, the three races are in fact rooted in three _brothers of common parents_. > > So either they believe in evolution and hence ongoing evolution since Noah is the reason the races are different now, OR they believe there has been no evolution of races since then and therefore that Noah and his wife bore three kids each of different race _ab initio_. > > I know Logic was never these idiots’ strong suit but Jeez!! More likely, they use the word race in its earlier meaning, (the one from which our current usage was taken), to mean a group of people with a common ancestor. The physical characteristics that allow us to distinguish these groups are simply an accident. The supposed dark skin of the sons of Ham is associated with the sin of Ham, although there is not really any scriptural source for this claim. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/29 "2015-03-28T15:42:08Z")
So basically, there was no written out definition. Just “feeling” about what a race is. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/30 "2015-03-28T18:40:21Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > So basically, there was no written out definition. Just “feeling” about what a race is. Exactly the same as every other racist ideology, really. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/31 "2015-03-28T19:01:56Z")
Well, not really. The one drop rule is [just one example](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule) of a black letter delineation of race, and there have been lots of others. If anything, the Bob Jones rule is unusual. You can read a bit about the purpose of the rule [here](http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2013/03/15/is-segregation-scriptural-by-bob-jones-sr-1960/) (the short version seems to be that God separated the races to protect Jews or something.) ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/32 "2015-03-30T17:13:37Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I’m doing a little reading and am surprised to learn that Bob Jones did not admit Black people as students(or, I assume, staff) until 1971. > > Asians were always allowed as students. > > It makes me wonder if the main problem was with Black people. For some reason. Do you need to wonder? The USA, and particularly southern USA, more so than other places, some people seem to have a fetish for hating blacks, considering them subhuman, and wanting to keep them separate… and finding a justification for that in the bible. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/33 "2015-03-30T17:15:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, not really. The one drop rule is [just one example](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule) of a black letter delineation of race, and there have been lots of others. But it’s “one drop” from a race that is defined in the first place as “we know it when we see it.” ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/34 "2015-03-30T17:57:58Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > So basically, there was no written out definition. Just “feeling” about what a race is. It’s probably worth linking to the excellent 2005 Staff Report on how the story of Noah’s sons became identified with what we now think of as “racial boundaries”: [What’s up with the biblical story of drunken Noah? (Part 2)](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2194/whats-up-with-the-biblical-story-of-drunken-noah-part-2) (Part 1 is [here](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1875/whats-up-with-the-biblical-story-of-drunken-noah-part-1), and describes the story of Ham in the bible and how it was originally interpreted by rabbinic authorities and early Christians.) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/35 "2015-03-30T18:51:28Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > But it’s “one drop” from a race that is defined in the first place as “we know it when we see it.” Not sure what this means. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/36 "2015-03-30T18:56:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not sure what this means. I said all racism is based on a “feeling” of what race is. You said no, that one-drop rules were based on more than a feeling. But one drop of what? One drop of heritage from someone black, which was based on a “feeling” of what race is. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/37 "2015-03-30T19:08:58Z")
Are you saying the “one drop rule” is not based on any particular objective criteria? I agree. But it’s still a clear rule. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/38 "2015-03-30T19:12:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Are you saying the “one drop rule” is not based on any particular objective criteria? I agree. But it’s still a clear rule. It’s “clear” but based on a feeling about who is black to start with. It doesn’t matter how far back you go, if the definition of who is black is always based on that gut reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/39 "2015-03-30T19:24:02Z")
Ohhhh. I think I get you now. You’re referring to where the drop came from. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788/40 "2015-03-30T19:26:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Ohhhh. I think I get you now. You’re referring to where the drop came from. Right. Sorry. Honestly, my brain is working at half speed today. I can’t seem to phrase anything in an easy way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-know-how-bob-jones-university-defined-race/715788.md?page=3)