# Do we need a lawyer? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 3, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662 "2012-02-03T17:49:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Campion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@Campion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Campion)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2012, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662/21 "2012-02-05T23:57:01Z")
I’m not clear from the OP whether the “divorce agreement” referenced is an actual, documented part of the divorce. In other words, it’s not clear to me whether the ex’s actions also are, independently, a violation of a court order. There’s also the moral turpitude issue, in which a state bar would be marginally interested, that may cause him to lose his license. But the bar would be more interested in the moral turpitude if there’s a legal judgment to back it up. I agree with **Northern Piper** , though. Talking to a lawyer is a great start; you can start with a family law lawyer, because they have experience with divorces, money and banks. You could also talk to a general litigator who’s done work with contracts or torts. This isn’t a particularly knotty problem from a legal perspective. And while much of the legwork with a bank can be done by you, sometimes the letter on legal letterhead gets a better response. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662/22 "2012-02-06T00:05:48Z")
> [@astro](#): > > The the OP what exactly does your statement below mean? I’m not clear as to your statement here. If they are both jointly in the loan as borrowers what exactly does her being “second” on this loan mean, and “not the primary account holder”. She’d be able to answer this better than me, but somehow when they took out the loan he was the primary borrower and she was secondary. I’m not really clear on this but whatever the deal, it’s made it difficult (not impossible) for her to manage the account. Also, the loan is held by Bank of America (originally MBNA but BoA bought them), and our personal checking account is at Chase. BoA saved her info the last time she made a payment and used it to process his payment. Neither us, or him, have the ability credit-wise to get our half of the balance re-financed to get this split up for good. We could probably scrape up our half in a few months if we really focused but he wouldn’t be able to, so it’s pointless. That all being said, she talked with the bank (BoA) some more and they told her that they are the ones that made the mistake. He talked with somebody there to make his payment and the agent at the bank used my wife’s saved info. They are refunding this money to us immediately. They’ve erased the saved bank info (we’ll see) and suggested we pay in person at a local branch each month instead of calling in the payment - that way the account info is kept from being saved. Since the bank is taking full responsibility for the error, and fixing it, we’re not going to do anything w/ lawyers or police. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662/23 "2012-02-06T00:12:02Z")
> [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > Uh, when you refinance a loan the original loan is paid off. How would refinancing “impair any expectations of non-parties”. > > When a debt is paid off, that’s it. The lender doesn’t give two shits how or why it was paid off. > > What I said was “_Wouldn’t it have made sense to pay off half to get the ex to agree to refinance the loan and get your wife’s name off it, and file a modification to the divorce agreement reflecting this?_” with supporting math. > > Let’s say the loan had a principal balance of 15K. Ex-wife has 7.5K. That makes the new principal balance 7.5K. Husband takes out a new loan of 7.5K in his name only, which he uses along with ex-wife’s 7.5K to pay off the first loan in full. Now he is the only one with a loan, post divorce, in his name only. > > And as I said, _Something is wrong here. A 30k loan @ 18% would have payments of $541 a month and would be paid off in 10 years. It would have 34.9k of interest, which is more than the original loan amount._ Anything other than a loan shark would be cheaper than this loan. Paying 34.9k interest over ten years is insane. This former couple is paying more than double what they borrowed, with nothing to show for it. Depending on the new interest rate, the ex-wife paying off the principal of this loan herself with a much lower loan rate could result in her paying less than she would have by splitting the old loan with her ex. > [@astro](#): > > Seriously, the OPs numbers do not make sense and the context of the loan is puzzling. It looks like i made a typo on her original payment amount. The payments were $452 and now they are $260. It was a 10 year loan though when he changed the terms it extended the loan an additional 2 years. I don’t know the interest rates, but they had solid credit at the time and had no problem getting a loan from a decent lender - so I don’t think the rate is anything crazy. From playing with a loan calculator, a 10-year loan of $30k at about 12% interest has payments in a similar range as what they were originally paying. Probably about right. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662/24 "2012-02-06T01:41:56Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > … > > Since the bank is taking full responsibility for the error, and fixing it, we’re not going to do anything w/ lawyers or police. Lawyers might be interested in the bit about the bank letting the ex modify the loan without her signing anything, though it doesn’t sound like the net harm is enough to really interest anyone (something like 700 dollars over 6 months, right?). The police would be because the ex committed fraud, though again it’s tough to get them interested. Has BofA ever admitted they did anything wrong with the renegotiation? It may be worth crunching some numbers to see if the longer term / lower rate results in it costing more interest in the long run. Since your wife is benefitting from the lowered payment (now that asshole has been caught in his behavior), she might want to put aside the difference. In general I’m all for prepaying loans, but in this case it would result in the shortened term benefitting the ex alone. But if his financial situation ever improves to the point of being able to refinance, her having that extra cash saved up might be enough to let her separately refinance her own portion or pay it off entirely. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662/25 "2012-02-06T01:51:39Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > Hm, that’s an interesting idea. The balance is close to $10k and I don’t know how easy it would be for us to come up with that. Plus, I have very little faith that we’d ever get a dime out of him. This is something to consider though. No it isn’t. You are already dealing with some crook with financial problems. And you want to 'pay off his half, and sue him to recover it???" You have very little faith that you’d ever get a dime out of him, and you think it’s something to consider??? Keep off the crack!!! ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662/26 "2012-02-06T03:03:03Z")
> [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > Uh, when you refinance a loan the original loan is paid off. How would refinancing “impair any expectations of non-parties”. No bank is going to refi a loan where the (new) sole borrower is the ex-husband who can’t hold down a job. Even if you kick in half the outstanding principal. ---
**Author:** ![lindsaybluth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662/27 "2012-02-06T03:59:12Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I think that I’d change banks, not just accounts. Yeah, the ex is at fault, but if the bank has done this not once but twice, then the bank is either unforgivably sloppy about this sort of thing or they are outright colluding with the ex. I’m not stunned at the ex’s behavior, I’m mortified by the bank. ---
**Author:** ![Zulema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/db5fbb/32.png) [@Zulema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zulema)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662/28 "2012-02-06T05:25:03Z")
I wouldn’t bother with a lawyer yet because what you pay one could cost many months of payments. I would pay with a cashier’s check or money order, or I would pay cash at a local Bank of America. Get a new account number for your checking account and never use it to pay online. I wouldn’t try to disable online payment completely because it might make it harder to track what the ex is doing (if you’re currently using the same log in as him). ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662/29 "2012-02-06T05:47:00Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > She’d be able to answer this better than me, but somehow when they took out the loan he was the primary borrower and she was secondary. I’m not really clear on this but whatever the deal, it’s made it difficult (not impossible) for her to manage the account. > > Also, the loan is held by Bank of America (originally MBNA but BoA bought them), and our personal checking account is at Chase. BoA saved her info the last time she made a payment and used it to process his payment. > > Neither us, or him, have the ability credit-wise to get our half of the balance re-financed to get this split up for good. We could probably scrape up our half in a few months if we really focused but he wouldn’t be able to, so it’s pointless. > > That all being said, she talked with the bank (BoA) some more and they told her that they are the ones that made the mistake. He talked with somebody there to make his payment and the agent at the bank used my wife’s saved info. They are refunding this money to us immediately. > > They’ve erased the saved bank info (we’ll see) and suggested we pay in person at a local branch each month instead of calling in the payment - that way the account info is kept from being saved. > > Since the bank is taking full responsibility for the error, and fixing it, we’re not going to do anything w/ lawyers or police. If this truly happened, and he was able to change loan terms unilaterally with no input from her, and she is on the loan as a guarantor I’m not sure how this would be legally possible. It’s not a simple built in variable interest scenario to adjust the rate AND the term, from your description it sounds like he and the Bank re-made the loan. This requires her consent. Other than forging her name on the documents I’m not sure how he could do this. This is way beyond messing with payments, this is identity theft. From a legal perspective I’d really have to question if your wife is legally even still on the loan. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662/30 "2012-02-06T15:10:17Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > No bank is going to refi a loan where the (new) sole borrower is the ex-husband who can’t hold down a job. Even if you kick in half the outstanding principal. Really? Jobs are the only source of income in the universe now? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662/31 "2012-02-06T15:27:22Z")
Anyone asked to underwrite a new loan is going to look at the security underlying the old loan (two jointly and severally liable borrowers, one of whom has a steady income) and the security underlying the new one (one borrower with no steady income) and laugh. I assume we’re talking about an unsecured debt. B of A certainly isn’t going to have any interest in letting the OP’s wife off the hook. Think about it: what’s in it for them? ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662/32 "2012-02-06T15:28:34Z")
> [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > Really? Jobs are the only source of income in the universe now? It’s a safe bet that the ex doesn’t exactly have a trust fund to fall back on - what else would you suggest he do to get income if not holding down a job? Sure, there are lottery tickets and bank robbery, but I don’t think either of those has much chance of paying off his share of the loan. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662/33 "2012-02-06T15:41:39Z")
Wife should return to original lender and demand details of the refinance, immediately. Copies in triplicate. Proceed to lawyers office. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662/34 "2012-02-06T16:15:30Z")
As someone upthread mentioned, the new terms did benefit my wife and I by lowering the interest rate and monthly payment amount. The only downside (apart from the fact that he did it in the first place) was extending the length of the loan. Since it’s been nearly 2 years since the changes were made, and about a year since we discovered it (and have gone ahead and paid per the new terms), we’re not really interested in going to battle over the changes to the loan. Unless he finds someone to give him the money to cover his half of the balance, which is extremely unlikely given his employment history and current difficulty in even coming up with his $130 each month, that’s just not a realistic avenue for us - even though it would be the best way out of this mess. My wife did ask BoA about splitting the loan into separate notes and was, as expected, told that it wasn’t possible. I don’t blame them, why let her off the hook. Even though they’re each paying half, they’re jointly responsible for 100% in case one or the other stops paying. Anyway, thanks for all of the advice. Going forward we’ll be making payments directly at a branch, which will hopefully keep this kind of error from happening in the future. We’re planning a big ol’ party when this thing is finally paid off. Part of the original loan was to pay for their wedding, so you can imagine how fun it is for us to pay that bill each month. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662/35 "2012-02-06T16:34:31Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > As someone upthread mentioned, the new terms did benefit my wife and I by lowering the interest rate and monthly payment amount. The only downside (apart from the fact that he did it in the first place) was extending the length of the loan. … How much longer was the loan term? Again, she should figure out whether that would cost money in the long run (possible, depending on how much longer it is). The main reason I’d consider doing battle in this case is that they modified it WITHOUT HER CONSENT. I wonder if that might be enough to get them to say “yeah, we fucked up” and let you split the loan somehow. Probably not, but definitely get all the documentation, AND an explanation for how and why this was allowed to happen. Chances are, your wife would have been perfectly happy with this move if the asshole had bothered to bring her into the loop (as opposed to scamming her into paying more than her share). ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662/36 "2012-02-06T17:08:07Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > It’s a safe bet that the ex doesn’t exactly have a trust fund to fall back on - what else would you suggest he do to get income if not holding down a job? > > Sure, there are lottery tickets and bank robbery, but I don’t think either of those has much chance of paying off his share of the loan. I am talking real world here, not smartass fantasy. Sources of income that count when applying for a loan can include, royalties, dividends, sale of an asset, pension, alimony, child support, foster care payments, rental income, commission, repayment of a loan made to another person, owning a share of a business, proceeds of an insurance policy, sale of a home or vehicle, he could own a valuable collection or item, settlement from an accident or injury, consulting, inheritance, gift, per diem work, etc. I know loads of people who pay their bills with income derived from sources other than a 9-5 job. I have a friend who inherited a house in another country and rents it out for a profit, has a roommate in her condo here in NYC that covers all her costs and lives off the income from a large settlement and money her father left her. She pretends to be barely making ends meet so that others will pick up the tab or invite her out, but that’s another story. Another friend lives off decent alimony, another lives for long stretches between jobs on residuals. Another friend invented an item and made a load of money from that. Another sold his parents house after they died, invested well and has managed to parlay his investments into a decent monthly income. I know another woman who has a showplace apartment, and she rents it out for location shoots. People get money from all kinds of things, not just jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662/37 "2012-02-06T17:26:29Z")
Well, also in The Real World, the OP would presumably have told us if the ex had a steady source of income. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662/38 "2012-02-06T17:39:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, also in The Real World, the OP would presumably have told us if the ex had a steady source of income. I’m honestly not certain what he’s doing for income at the moment. He had several high profile positions after he graduated from law school, including a position working for then Illinois [Lt.Gov](http://Lt.Gov) Pat Quinn. He was fired from each of these positions for reasons that he never fully disclosed to my wife while they were married (through the grapevine she believes he was fired from at least one of the jobs for getting caught watching porn in his office.) The last information we had was that he was working at a big box retail store which has since gone out of business nationwide. We don’t know when he left that job but it was before the store shut down. He has a website advertising his law practice but no idea if it’s successful or not. From the difficulty he’s had in coming up with small amounts of money for payments on this loan, I don’t think he’s raking in the dough. Just to color things in a bit more, he’s re-married to a woman who had a child of her own when they met and they now have one together as well. They and the two children live with her family on the far west side of Chicago. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662/39 "2012-02-06T18:24:27Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > As someone upthread mentioned, the new terms did benefit my wife and I by lowering the interest rate and monthly payment amount. The only downside (apart from the fact that he did it in the first place) was extending the length of the loan. Since it’s been nearly 2 years since the changes were made, and about a year since we discovered it (and have gone ahead and paid per the new terms), we’re not really interested in going to battle over the changes to the loan. I think the point about looking into the loan modification isn’t that you want to completely undo it. Rather, the point is that if it was done improperly (without your wife’s signature) then your wife may be able to legally claim she’s no longer responsible for any of the loan – it’s all on the ex. Now, I assume you don’t really want to do that and want to pay off your debts, but – assuming she does have that legal ability – it’s a great way to pressure the bank to split the loan. If the bank sees that your wife has the option of walking away completely, they may find it in themselves to split the loan. I wouldn’t necessarily get a lawyer right away, but I’d think it’s worth at least asking the bank for a copy of the new loan agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662/40 "2012-02-06T19:20:10Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > \ > I wouldn’t necessarily get a lawyer right away, but I’d think it’s worth at least asking the bank for a copy of the new loan agreement. I think this is necessary, too - I keep all the paperwork for all our financial stuff to keep our asses covered. I’d be very curious to see if he did indeed forge her signature, or if there was none required. We just bought a new car this summer with both my husband and me on the loan, and we both had to sign everything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-a-lawyer/611662.md?page=3)