# Do we need the lies of childhood? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991 "2010-02-14T21:02:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991/1 "2010-02-14T21:02:01Z")
Tooth fairy, Santa Claus, etc. Do they add anything to a child’s experience? Would the world be a better place if we never told kids those stories? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991/2 "2010-02-14T21:11:59Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > Tooth fairy, Santa Claus, etc. Do they add anything to a child’s experience? Would the world be a better place if we never told kids those stories? I don’t see any reason for it. It inevitably leads to disappointment. If a child is not told there is a Santa Claus, but that they’ll be getting gifts from their parents instead, are they really going to be any less excited about Christmas? I could see how it might end up being spun as a valuable lesson to children to be skeptical of what they hear from authorities and not to believe everything they are told, but most of those children grow up still believing in God, so the lesson doesn’t really seem to have stuck. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991/3 "2010-02-14T21:13:33Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > Tooth fairy, Santa Claus, etc. Do they add anything to a child’s experience? Would the world be a better place if we never told kids those stories? I think if parents are willing to be upfront and honest with their children about myths when the child start questioning them, there should be no long term harm. It’s when parents continue to support the myths that trouble arises, because those kids will grow up to believe the most unbelievable crap. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991/4 "2010-02-14T21:30:49Z")
I have always been very ambiguous about Santa. I keep talking about the Santa presents they got from their grandparents for example. When my kid asked last Christmas whether Santa existed (and didn’t fall for the “what do you think” approach), I asked him “does Mickey Mouse exist?”. When he said yes, then I told him that just like Mickey existed, so did Santa. I hope that as soon as he figures (he kinda does, of course) that Mickey is not real in the way Grandpa is real then he will extend that to Santa. I want to think that no harm is being done but I agree that there is really no point to it. Kids want presents, not bearded men coming down chimneys. At the same time, I like my children to be children and I think magic is a big part of being children. I still pull tricks on them and when they ask how I do it, I answer “magic”. They know something is going on but they just cannot figure it out and see it in wonder. I think fiction and awe at things too big for their minds are great tools to expand their minds. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991/5 "2010-02-14T21:57:41Z")
From Terry Pratchett’s _Hogfather_ > [@](#): > > “All right”, said Susan. “I’m not stupid. You’re saying humans need. . ._fantasies_ to make life bearable.” > REALLY? AS IF IT WERE SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE. > “Tooth faries? Hogfathers? Little-” > YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE _LITTLE_ LIES. > “So we can believe the big ones?” > YES. JUSTICE, MERCY, DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING > “They’re not the same at all!” > YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN _SHOW_ ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET- Death waived a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME SORT OF IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME . . . SOME _RIGHTNESS_ IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MIGHT BE JUDGED. > "Yes, but people have _got_ to believe that, or what’s the _point_? > MY POINT EXACTLY. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991/6 "2010-02-14T22:10:02Z")
Death is wrong. A social construct or arbitrary decision isn’t a “lie”. Knowingly false claims about entities ARE lies. He’s really making an argument against what I’ve heard called “greedy reductionism” when he makes his comment about looking for a particle of mercy or justice; those are high level constructs, and naturally wouldn’t be found at the particle level. That doesn’t make them lies though. And no, I don’t think we need to lie to children; and I’ve never been able to bring myself do so. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991/7 "2010-02-14T22:34:25Z")
I didn’t get told those stories and I sure don’t regret it. I consider this sort of thing an insult to the considerable intelligence (tempered with biological gullibility) of kids. They are primed to learn from adults and to believe what we tell them - don’t waste this most formative of periods on magical nonsense, teach them valuable and true information, be honest about how the world works, and encourage the growth of those critical thinking skills that so many adults lack. Not too long ago learning from your parents and other adults was how you learned everything about life. Now I suppose most parents can trust that schools will teach their kids the important stuff. But school can only teach you so much. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991/8 "2010-02-14T23:14:47Z")
\*unequivocally no. edited because i misspelled unequivocally. my spelling’s shot to hell as of late. i recently spelled ludicrous ludacris ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991/9 "2010-02-14T23:28:28Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Death is wrong. A social construct or arbitrary decision isn’t a “lie”. But the idea that these things are universals are. The idea that we live in a just universe is. The idea that your belief that it’s wrong to kill someone because you don’t like the way they look is better than my belief that it’s ok to kill someone because you don’t like the way they look is. ---
**Author:** ![figure9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@figure9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/figure9)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991/10 "2010-02-14T23:38:03Z")
Do we need the lies of childhood? Probably not. Then again do we need poets, musicians and artists? I don’t see that the lies of childhood cause any harm and they make children happy, what is wrong with that? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991/11 "2010-02-14T23:49:54Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > Tooth fairy, Santa Claus, etc. Do they add anything to a child’s experience? Would the world be a better place if we never told kids those stories? Sure these lies prepare our kids for dealing with later, less innocuous, adult lies. If a kid catches their own mom lying to them about Santa claus, it very well could cause the child to wonder how to detect the sorts of lies total strangers might tell them. The experience certainly won’t turn them into more trusting, gullible individuals. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991/12 "2010-02-15T00:06:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think if parents are willing to be upfront and honest with their children about myths when the child start questioning them, there should be no long term harm. It’s when parents continue to support the myths that trouble arises, because those kids will grow up to believe the most unbelievable crap. That really happens? Are there people that grow up still believing some of the myths they were taught as a child? Probably hardly any keep their beliefs of Santa Claus or a Tooth Fairy into adulthood, so what myths do some adults continue to hold onto into adulthood and beyond? This seems like it could be a pretty unhealthy behavior–a psychiatric problem that could deeply affect whether this adult is able to behave as a fully responsible member of society. I feel sad for them and for those around them who have to deal with the ramifications of grown men and women making decisions (that can affect all of us) based on faulty reasoning borne from taking myths as truth. Certainly none of these delusional people ever achieve a position of power where they could (mis)shape public policy, do they? What can we do to help these people? Can they be successfully treated? How can we protect ourselves from decisions they may make that could harm us? Maybe adults shouldn’t be teaching children myths if there is any danger that the child will never understand that they are total fiction. I’m scared. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991/13 "2010-02-15T00:14:47Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > But the idea that these things are universals are. The idea that we live in a just universe is. The idea that your belief that it’s wrong to kill someone because you don’t like the way they look is better than my belief that it’s ok to kill someone because you don’t like the way they look is. A 4 year old simply doesn’t have the cognitive capacity to receive a lecture on the metaphysics of morals. But I wouldn’t classify morality as a lie in the same sense as the tooth fairy is a lie. It’s more of a Cliff Notes version of the truth that they can digest at the present moment. Morality is a man made construct, that is true. But it’s a _useful_ construct that we need to maintain an orderly society. Does the square root of negative one have an actual, physical reality? Not that I know of. But if we use it in certain calculations dealing with real world problems, it helps us solve a variety of problems. Are imaginary numbers a “lie”? ---
**Author:** ![statsman1982](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@statsman1982](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/statsman1982)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991/14 "2010-02-15T00:17:23Z")
Anecdotes not being evidence and all that, I can say that the times where I believed in the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus were happier for me. Once I realized they were complete fiction, a little bit of the magic died. I see nothing wrong with letting kids indulge in a bit of fantasy. Technically, yes, telling your kids that Santa brought them presents is a lie. But we tell lies all the time, to everyone. I’ve never gone to the hospital and seen someone who looks “good”, but as long as they aren’t on death’s door, I will say that they look good. I’ve also faked being interested in other people’s kids and their shenanigans. I have never told the truth when some cashier asks me how my day has been; it’s always “pretty good” even when I feel exactly the opposite. There are lies, and there are LIES. The ones I’m thinking about when I use all caps are things on the magnitude of the Gulf of Tonkin, the Iraq War, love conquers all, and there is no such thing as evil. Those are the ones to dispel early on; Santa is harmless fun. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991/15 "2010-02-15T00:19:16Z")
We don’t need them but it is an excuse to have a family gathering and some great fun. Life would be pretty dreary for little ones without things to look forward to. I am like an adult child and I have never lost the awe. My parents nurtured it. I am a responsible adult but every once in a while I feel like singing in the rain, or building a sand castle at the beach, or wrapping a gift for someone I love. I saw Mommy kissing Santa Claus and I’m OK with it today. I got a nice card and a box of chocolates from my son today. I am so glad he still believes. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991/16 "2010-02-15T00:19:38Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Sure these lies prepare our kids for dealing with later, less innocuous, adult lies. If a kid catches their own mom lying to them about Santa claus, it very well could cause the child to wonder how to detect the sorts of lies total strangers might tell them. The experience certainly won’t turn them into more trusting, gullible individuals. Better to teach your child that many people are not trustworthy and will lie to your face, than betray their trust yourself so they can learn it on their own, I would think. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991/17 "2010-02-15T00:26:22Z")
> [@figure9](#): > > Do we need the lies of childhood? Probably not. Then again do we need poets, musicians and artists? I don’t see that the lies of childhood cause any harm and they make children happy, what is wrong with that? Well…they probably _do_ set up expectations for adulthood. At least in some kids, who may wind up nurturing deep grievances when the grown-up world seems to be out to break them. I’m not talking about cartoon fairy figures and such, but the ideals we teach to children -or claim to teach, or pretend to. Gentleness and sharing and fair play and such. Maybe _those_ are the lies to watch out for. Or those **Capt. Amazing** mentioned - the moral lies, the ones we teach when kids are a little older and capable of some reason. Then again, if you _really_ believe in the real world, then any adults with grievances about it are just poorly matured or adapted, and deserve whatever kicking around they get. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991/18 "2010-02-15T00:40:09Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Sure these lies prepare our kids for dealing with later, less innocuous, adult lies. If a kid catches their own mom lying to them about Santa claus, it very well could cause the child to wonder how to detect the sorts of lies total strangers might tell them. The experience certainly won’t turn them into more trusting, gullible individuals. you’ve got to be middleaged and childless. any younger and you’ll remember lying your butt off to your parents as a kid and vice versa. if you have kids, you’d realize that you and your kid lie to each other all the time. parents lie to their kids on WAY more occasions than just on on holidays. for that matter, kids lie just as much to their parents. Santa is definitely NOT necessary to socialize children to the truths of lies. in fact, i’m sure santa clause is the one example that DOESN’T prepare kids for dealing with adult lies. It’s a universal pillar of truth carried on for YEARS. kids catch their parents with lies of false promises on a daily basis. “i just want the truth. i won’t get mad i promise” ring any bells? how about “you’re the most HANDSOME kid EVER!” even though we have eyes and we clearly can tell that we’re not. How about false trips to McDonalds, or even Disney World? How about the converse - if you’re bad we’re NOT going to Disney World? i think parental lying is a cop out, especially the big ones. From Santa to Drugs/Alcohol. I think kids would be a lot better adjusted if parents are willing to have serious talks with their kids from time to time. Of course, there are hippie parents who take it too far and traumatize their kids with TMI. However as a rule, i think the lies of childhood are just cop outs. Take Santa for instance. Father Christmas is a benevolent saint who would leave toys for good little boys and girls. This lie allows parents to threaten their kids, and have a scapegoat to blame if presents were monetarily impossible. “well… i guess you just weren’t good enough” rather than “i’m sorry. we’re just not rich enough.” ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991/19 "2010-02-15T01:20:14Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Take Santa for instance. Father Christmas is a benevolent saint who would leave toys for good little boys and girls. This lie allows parents to threaten their kids, and have a scapegoat to blame if presents were monetarily impossible. “well… i guess you just weren’t good enough” rather than “i’m sorry. we’re just not rich enough.” Santa doesn’t deliver gifts every year. 1990-94 were off years. ☹ Children definitely need lies. My mom could have told me that we were dead broke and could barely afford food let alone Christmas toys. But she didn’t and I spent my childhood thinking Santa was a lazy fat ass instead of thinking that my family would run out of food. That’s one reason for parents to lie. Children can’t do anything about some of life’s problems, so there is really no sense in cluing them in. That story might not strictly fit with what the OP was asking, but my mom did use the myth of Santa in a productive way. As for lies that keep children from misbehaving, well, we have those lies for adults too. They’re just slightly more realistic than magical reindeers. Ever hear of [Horatio Alger](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Alger_myth) myths? Our culture is full of them, but they’re just there so that adults believe that if they work hard then they will become rich. It’s a lie, but movies, books, and newspapers like to repeat it over and over again. It helps keep adults from misbehaving the same way Santa keeps children from misbehaving. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991/20 "2010-02-15T01:47:51Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > But the idea that these things are universals are. The idea that we live in a just universe is. And that IS a lie, and a bad one to believe in. The [Just World Fallacy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_phenomenon)leads to behavior that is both self destructive and unethical in the extreme. Justice is something we design and impose upon the world, in order to make it better; that’s not a lie, it’s a goal. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The idea that your belief that it’s wrong to kill someone because you don’t like the way they look is better than my belief that it’s ok to kill someone because you don’t like the way they look is. That’s not a lie either; it’s practicality. Societies that think that it’s OK to run around killing each other for foolish reasons hurt themselves. And for obvious reasons, it’s generally a good idea to convince other people that killing you because you look or act funny is wrong. You don’t need some kind of lie, or some kind of “absolute morality” to base justice, fairness, mercy and so forth on. “It tends to make things better for all of us” is not only a good enough basis and justification, I would consider it superior to any alleged “absolute morality”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-the-lies-of-childhood/528991.md?page=2)