# Do We Need to Destroy the GOP ... In Order to Save It? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 2, 2016, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-to-destroy-the-gop-in-order-to-save-it/753667 "2016-05-02T04:11:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-to-destroy-the-gop-in-order-to-save-it/753667/41 "2016-05-03T22:49:13Z")
Republicans became that way. Which is what led them right out of power as well. Taxpayers are the most powerful group in American society when pissed. You’d think politicians would learn. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-to-destroy-the-gop-in-order-to-save-it/753667/42 "2016-05-03T22:53:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > … taxpayers got fed up and there were consequences which are still felt today(ask California’s liberal government). Boy, did you pick the wrong example. For 20 years, California’s state government was paralyzed and ineffectual, and swamped with deficits papered over with bond issues and budget jiggery-pokery. The reason: a 2/3 majority required for any revenue increase. Republicans in Sacramento dug in their heels and the state was a complete fiscal mess. Then in 2010 Jerry Brown (D), peace be unto him, came into office. Two miraculous things happened: the 2/3 majority was done away with, and he got a tax increase through (using the initiative process). The Republican minority can sit and sulk, but we’ve had 6 years of fiscal restraint, no lavish spending, improved infrastructure and balanced budgets. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-to-destroy-the-gop-in-order-to-save-it/753667/43 "2016-05-03T23:16:18Z")
I didn’t claim that the taxpayer initiatives were good, just that they were a consequence of treating taxpayers as an ATM and not really caring if they got actual value for their hard earned money. The government overreached, the government got reined in. Even if we agree that taxpayer initiatives like that are detrimental, it’s good for democracy and good government to have them as a kind of nuclear option if politicians simply won’t do the will of the taxpayers. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-to-destroy-the-gop-in-order-to-save-it/753667/44 "2016-05-03T23:42:22Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > General Westmoreland once famously said, of a Vietnam Village, that “we destroyed that village in order to save it” or words to that effect. No he didn’t. See: > **[Bến Tre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%E1%BA%BFn_Tre#Vietnam_War)** > > Bến Tre (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}Vietnamese pronunciation: \[ˀɓən˦ˀ˥ ʈɛ˧˧\] ⓘ) is the provincial capital of Bến Tre Province, in the Mekong Delta region of southern Vietnam. Located 85 kilometers (53 mi) southwest of Ho Chi Minh City, the city covers an area of 65.75 km2 (25.39 sq mi) and has a population of 124,499 at the 2019... ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-to-destroy-the-gop-in-order-to-save-it/753667/45 "2016-05-03T23:53:12Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > The GOP will go on, even if by another name, because it occupies a niche that’s unreplaceable in the political system. There are two poles, liberalism and conservatism . . . Even that can change. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-to-destroy-the-gop-in-order-to-save-it/753667/46 "2016-05-04T00:44:41Z")
Absolutely. One party dominance has occurred in some democratic nations. I think the Social Democrats ruled in Sweden for like 60 years, didnt they? And even now there is no real conservative party in Sweden. Or Britain for that matter. Some would argue that there’s no liberal party in the US now, just the conservative party and the far right conservative party. But here’s the reality: 40% of Americans are conservative. That number may decline somewhat with demographic change, but for the forseeable future, there will be a big pool of conservative voters and there will be candidates to cater to them. Liberals will continue to sit in the back of the bus for the forseeable future as well, since it’s not even clear they make up a majority of Democrats, much less a significant number of general election voters. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-to-destroy-the-gop-in-order-to-save-it/753667/47 "2016-05-04T00:46:54Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Absolutely. One party dominance has occurred in some democratic nations. I think the Social Democrats ruled in Sweden for like 60 years, didnt they? And even now there is no real conservative party in Sweden. Or Britain for that matter. Some would argue that there’s no liberal party in the US now, just the conservative party and the far right conservative party. > > But here’s the reality: 40% of Americans are conservative. That number may decline somewhat with demographic change, but for the forseeable future, there will be a big pool of conservative voters and there will be candidates to cater to them. Liberals will continue to sit in the back of the bus for the forseeable future as well, since it’s not even clear they make up a majority of Democrats, much less a significant number of general election voters. But those are just labels. On the issues, the polling looks quite different – big majorities support the minimum wage, higher taxes on the rich, among other things. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-to-destroy-the-gop-in-order-to-save-it/753667/48 "2016-05-04T00:50:42Z")
And yet taxes on just the sorta rich and the middle class are a third rail these days, which makes government functionally conservative because it can’t raise much in the way of new funds. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-to-destroy-the-gop-in-order-to-save-it/753667/49 "2016-05-04T00:58:32Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > But here’s the reality: 40% of Americans are conservative. That number may decline somewhat with demographic change, but for the forseeable future, there will be a big pool of conservative voters and there will be candidates to cater to them. Liberals will continue to sit in the back of the bus for the forseeable future as well, since it’s not even clear they make up a majority of Democrats, much less a significant number of general election voters. The Republicans need to face that fact that if 40% of Americans are conservative then 60% of Americans are not conservative. If the Republicans insist on being a conservative-only party, guess who’s going to win elections for the foreseeable future? In the current election cycle, every Republican candidate (with the exception of Pataki) has run as a conservative. They’ve only argued about who was more conservative, which shade of conservative they were, and each other’s personalities. Who’s the Republican candidate being offered for moderate voters? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-to-destroy-the-gop-in-order-to-save-it/753667/50 "2016-05-04T01:00:14Z")
Great point. Republicans used to be good at winning moderates. Not so much anymore. Although I’m not sure the Democratic Party is doing much better these days. We’ll find out more in November. If Democrats are truly appealing to moderates, we’ll see a lot of Blue Dogs elected and that caucus revived. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-to-destroy-the-gop-in-order-to-save-it/753667/51 "2016-05-04T01:04:39Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I define good government as noticeably less corruption and mismanagement than would normally occur. Due to the incentives in government, it actually takes a great deal of effort and political capital to make that happen, plus deep knowledge of why government tends to have corruption and mismanagement and waste. Government has mismanagement and waste because it is an organization. Government has corruption because it presents so many temptations to/opportunities for corruption that are not among those to be found in the private sector, and because it is an organization. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-to-destroy-the-gop-in-order-to-save-it/753667/52 "2016-05-04T01:08:46Z")
Which is why I said less than there would otherwise be if there wasn’t a priority placed on lessening it. For example, one point of negotiation between the President and Republicans during the budget talks was that Republicans wanted to weed out fraud in the food stamp and disability programs. The President said that was fine, but not if it made access harder for legitimate cases. That’s just a fundamental disagreement between ideologies. My side says that reducing waste and fraud is more important than making government programs easy to access. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-to-destroy-the-gop-in-order-to-save-it/753667/53 "2016-05-04T01:12:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Great point. Republicans used to be good at winning moderates. Not so much anymore. Although I’m not sure the Democratic Party is doing much better these days. We’ll find out more in November. If Democrats are truly appealing to moderates, we’ll see a lot of Blue Dogs elected and that caucus revived. Moderates don’t seem to matter much this year. As Trump and Sanders have demonstrated, what matters is the economically distressed, downwardly mobile, neglected and angry middle class and working class and poor, some of whom are lefties and some righties and some of whom don’t know what they are but know they’re getting poorer, and that neither party’s establishment seems to care, and that these two outsiders do at least seem to care. The party that truly serves their economic interests will not only govern in America but will deserve to. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-to-destroy-the-gop-in-order-to-save-it/753667/54 "2016-05-04T01:16:08Z")
I agree with that, but I wouldn’t totally count moderates out. Trump was winning moderate Republcians because they apparently believe that the “real Trump” is one of them, and moderate Democrats are supporting Clinton because they also believe she’s one of them, despite her moves to the left. The unreported story of 2016 is that despite all the sturm und drang of the angry populists, moderates have actually picked both nominees. In Trump’s case, he’s all but said the angry populist thing is an act. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-to-destroy-the-gop-in-order-to-save-it/753667/55 "2016-05-04T01:20:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I agree with that, but I wouldn’t totally count moderates out. Trump was winning moderate Republcians because they apparently believe that the “real Trump” is one of them, and moderate Democrats are supporting Clinton because they also believe she’s one of them, despite her moves to the left. The unreported story of 2016 is that despite all the sturm und drang of the angry populists, moderates have actually picked both nominees. In Trump’s case, he’s all but said the angry populist thing is an act. That only means the moderate vote is split, not that it is significant. Of course, it’s not a symmetrical picture: Clinton really is a centrist; we can’t reasonably expect her to go to Obama’s left on much of anything, except maybe pay equity, which is at least as much a professional-class issue as a working-class issue. Trump, while not really a RW, is really a populist because he has no other style, and really angry because he has no other mood, none of which tells us much about how he would govern. ---
**Author:** ![JBGUSA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/258eb7/32.png) [@JBGUSA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBGUSA)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-to-destroy-the-gop-in-order-to-save-it/753667/56 "2016-05-14T23:03:38Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I’ve been monitoring this board for awhile now, trying to see if anybody would ever say _anything_ positive about Cruz. I thought he was universally despised. So, the OP had some value to me for that reason. One Cruz fan, color me shocked we have even one. Why? As for their quality as people, I say we need say very little about Trump and Clinton. ---
**Author:** ![JBGUSA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/258eb7/32.png) [@JBGUSA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBGUSA)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-to-destroy-the-gop-in-order-to-save-it/753667/57 "2016-05-14T23:04:51Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > That debate usually stops the instant it meets resistance. People claiming positive conservatism usually revert back to negative attacks when its pointed out to them that their policies kill people and the environment, and is bad for the poor and middle class. Would you rather educate children in schools or create an extra transgender bathroom in each area where there are restrooms? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2016, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-to-destroy-the-gop-in-order-to-save-it/753667/58 "2016-05-15T00:59:41Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > Would you rather educate children in schools or create an extra transgender bathroom in each area where there are restrooms? 😕 Why are you offering us a choice between pepperoni pizza and classical music? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-need-to-destroy-the-gop-in-order-to-save-it/753667.md?page=2)