# Do we overidentify race? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2008, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906 "2008-12-19T14:37:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906/21 "2008-12-20T18:52:29Z")
I would say yes, but there are a lot of people who get something positive out of focusing on race. There were a lot of people who broke down in tears when Obama was named Pres.-elect because they never thought they’d lived to see that day. All of his hard work and positive traits got him there, but there were (and still are) cases where hard work wouldn’t have been enough. As someone else said, it really depends on what the topic at hand is. > [@curlcoat](#): > > The whole whatever-American thing is stupid IMO. I am almost purebred Irish, but since my ancestors have been here for at least three generations, I am “just” an American. (Actually, because I grew up near the Canadian border, I identify myself as from the States or a Statesider.) I have never met an “African”-American who was actually born anywhere but in the US, and of the ones I knew well enough, their parents save one were born here too - that one was born in the Phillipines. > > I would never consider calling myself Irish-American because all that does is further divide up the country. Who cares if Barack is “purebred” black? Who cares what color he is at all? I really think the militant black folks need to get over themselves and quit trying to be separate but equal. The only A-A issues are the ones they bring on themselves. If blacks calling themselves “African American\*” causes so much trouble, then why are they better off today, than when they were known as Negroes or Coloreds? Where do militant African Americans even play into this? They’d be the last ones to be upset that Obama wasn’t acknowledging his white side. \*Since the term African American means a person who is the descendants of blacks brought to the United States as slaves, and their owners, often with a bit of American Indian mixed in, it’s completely unsurprising that the AA’s you know were born in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906/22 "2008-12-21T04:24:32Z")
> [@Omega\_Glory](#): > > If blacks calling themselves “African American\*” causes so much trouble, then why are they better off today, than when they were known as Negroes or Coloreds? Where do militant African Americans even play into this? Do you really think it was the change in term that fueled better times for the black people, or do you think it was things like desegregation, quotas, scholarships, etc? I actually believe that separating themselves that way is keeping them from being on a completely equal footing with the rest of the country. Note that it is a national big deal when a black person gets some high office, but the same thing happening to an Asian, Latino or whatever doesn’t get near the attention > [@](#): > > \*Since the term African American means a person who is the descendants of blacks brought to the United States as slaves, and their owners, often with a bit of American Indian mixed in, it’s completely unsurprising that the AA’s you know were born in the U.S. If that is true, then it just makes it that much worse. First off, I cannot imagine that every black person that calls themself AA is actually a descendant of slaves. And even if they are, why do they need to throw that in everyone’s face at all times? My grandfather (or great grandfather, don’t remember right off) was sold into slavery in Ireland and brought here to work in the coal mines. Not only do we not go about reminding people that this happened to the Irish (those that lived the transport on coffin ships to get here), it is so unimportant that there is no mention of it in popular history. As it should be - heck, if nothing else, I’d much rather be living here than in Ireland so as bad as slave trade is, the descendants of those Irish slaves are much better off. Would the average AA rather that their ancestors had not been brought here and that they were still in Africa? I just don’t get the mindset. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906/23 "2008-12-21T04:33:38Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > As it should be - heck, if nothing else, I’d much rather be living here than in Ireland so as bad as slave trade is, the descendants of those Irish slaves are much better off. Why do you say this? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906/24 "2008-12-21T04:50:44Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Why do you say this? Actually, I apologize for that as it wasn’t fair. For one thing I tend to think that any place other than the US is not as desireable a place to live, which is what? at least rude but I think there is a term for that. But mostly, it is because I have two kinds of arthritis and Raynaud’s disease and so am completely miserable in places that get cold and/or damp. I tend to forget that other people don’t mind it or even like it! My husband used to travel to Ireland (Athlone to be specific) on business for a fortnight at a time, and I never had any desire to go over, no matter how beautiful it is (he brought home pictures) due to the weather. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906/25 "2008-12-21T04:57:21Z")
No need to apologise for your opinion, I was genuinely curious. Ireland isn’t the backwater it once was etc. By the way I am somewhat dubious about that story about your grandfather or great-grandfather having been brought as a slave to the US. Although there were forms of indentured servitude in this country right into modern times I don’t think slavery existed here in the timeframe you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906/26 "2008-12-21T06:00:07Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > If that is true, then it just makes it that much worse. First off, I cannot imagine that every black person that calls themself AA is actually a descendant of slaves. And even if they are, why do they need to throw that in everyone’s face at all times? Whatever the quality of your imagination, your grasp of history is sadly lacking. Pretty much anyone in the U.S. who is identified as African American really is the descendant of slaves. Barack Obama is an extraordinarily rare exception. Up until 1807, all Africans entering the U.S. were brought as slaves. From 1897 to 1861, quite a few more Africans were brought into the U.S. illegally as slaves. There were no countries in Africa where people were choosing to emigrate and picking the U.S. as their destination. From 1861 until the early 1960s, Africa was nearly completely ruled as colonies by Europeans who did not take well to local peoples depleting the labor force by emigration, so there were still (effectively) no African immigrants. In the 2000 census, there were a bit over 330,000 people noted as black immigrants from Africa with an additional 80,000 noted as mixed race. Given the 2000 census figure of almost 35,000,000 blacks in the U.S., you will note that the number of descendants of slaves is nearly 99% of the U.S. black population. Even people who immigrated from places in the Caribbean were simply the descendants of slaves taken to those lands, so they still had a slavery background. > [@curlcoat](#): > > My grandfather (or great grandfather, don’t remember right off) was sold into slavery in Ireland and brought here to work in the coal mines. Not only do we not go about reminding people that this happened to the Irish (those that lived the transport on coffin ships to get here), it is so unimportant that there is no mention of it in popular history. As it should be - heck, if nothing else, I’d much rather be living here than in Ireland so as bad as slave trade is, the descendants of those Irish slaves are much better off. Would the average AA rather that their ancestors had not been brought here and that they were still in Africa? I just don’t get the mindset. Your ancestor was brought as an indentured servant, if anything. While trickery on the part of the contract holder could keep an indentured servant in miserable conditions beyond his contract, that person was not prohibited from learning to read, his children did not become the property of the master, and, barring deceit, he had to be freed at the end of a fixed period. You are free to view your ancestor’s experience as simply one tale in your family story. When blacks consider slavery in the U.S., they have to see the effect slavery–along with an additional 100 years of second class citizenship–had on their entire population. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906/27 "2008-12-21T14:48:56Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Do you really think it was the change in term that fueled better times for the black people, or do you think it was things like desegregation, quotas, scholarships, etc? I actually believe that separating themselves that way is keeping them from being on a completely equal footing with the rest of the country. Note that it is a national big deal when a black person gets some high office, but the same thing happening to an Asian, Latino or whatever doesn’t get near the attention Of course I think it was solely the change in term, which is why I said that. Wait, I never said anything like that at all, did I? You claimed that people calling themselves AA was causing some kind of harm. What harm? Please provide some examples, because it seems to me that the modern fashionable terms used to refer to the descendants of American slaves has nothing to do with their quality of life at all. There are problems in the black community, but I see no reason to believe that what they call themselves is one of them. Also, I don’t know one black person who’s said the prefer to be called African American, and I know plenty of blacks. I have no idea why you think that the first Latino or Asian President won’t get a lot of attention. They will, as will the first woman. > [@](#): > > If that is true, then it just makes it that much worse. First off, I cannot imagine that every black person that calls themself AA is actually a descendant of slaves. And even if they are, why do they need to throw that in everyone’s face at all times? My grandfather (or great grandfather, don’t remember right off) was sold into slavery in Ireland and brought here to work in the coal mines. Not only do we not go about reminding people that this happened to the Irish (those that lived the transport on coffin ships to get here), it is so unimportant that there is no mention of it in popular history. As it should be - heck, if nothing else, I’d much rather be living here than in Ireland so as bad as slave trade is, the descendants of those Irish slaves are much better off. Would the average AA rather that their ancestors had not been brought here and that they were still in Africa? I just don’t get the mindset. Blacks from other countries are usually very careful to make that clear, so no I don’t believe there are very many blacks from the West Indies or Africa who call themselves African American. How is it being thrown in anyone’s face? If people want to be as clear as they can be about where their ancestors come from, so what? How does that hurt you? Will you be ranting about Americans who like to call themselves Italians, next? Do you realize that whatever your relative went through is nothing like what happened to the slaves and their relatives? It was just one family member, and had so little effect that you don’t even know which one it was. We’re talking about generations of black society who were effected by slavery and the aftermath. Just because you’re happy to be born in the U.S. doesn’t mean you have to be happy with the circumstances that caused it. We’ll never know what would have happened on the W. Coast of Africa if Europeans hadn’t gone down there. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906/28 "2008-12-21T15:50:20Z")
> [@Omega\_Glory](#): > > … I don’t know one black person who’s said the prefer to be called African American, and I know plenty of blacks… Well you may be too young to remember the context of the term’s popularization. It was popularized by a fiat from [the Rev. Jesse Jackson](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE4D8113CF932A05752C0A96F948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all) back in the eighties. (This from 1989.) > [@](#): > > A movement led by the Rev. Jesse Jackson to call blacks African-Americans has met with both rousing approval and deep-seated skepticism in a debate that is coming to symbolize the role and history of blacks in this country. > > The term, used for years in intellectual circles, is gaining currency among many other blacks, who say its use is a sign that they are accepting their difficult past and resolving a long ambivalence toward Africa. … Skeptics, many of them older blacks who have lived through previous name changes, are resisting the move. Some say they do not identify with Africa and resent prominent blacks telling them what to be called. Others fear that the debate over a new name draws attention away from problems like unemployment and drug abuse. > > Leaders of the movement to change the language say it was concern about those problems and growing involvement in the fight to end racial separation in South Africa that led to the search for a clearer group identity. > > They say they want to shift the definition of the group from the racial description black to a cultural and ethnic identity that ties the group to its continent of origin and fosters dignity and self-esteem. > > ‘‘This is deeper than just name recognition,’’ said Mr. Jackson who, along with others, called for the change at a news conference in late December. ‘‘Black tells you about skin color and what side of town you live on. African-American evokes discussion of the world.’’ > > Few people who favor the new term expect to see it replace ‘‘black’’ entirely, although they would like it to be the principal reference eventually. … ‘‘We just feel it’s a more accurate term,’’ said Dr. Alice Jurica, director of social studies for the Chicago public schools. … For a while certain media outlets began to behave as if “Black” was not an acceptable term to use. This peaked and faded. I imagine that there are still a few who would prefer one to another, just there are some who fret over Latino vs Hispanic. Interestingly enough this op had been prompted by some objections made by some biracial individuals on a public radio call-in show that have embraced “biracial” as their identity and who feel that Obama is more “theirs” than any one elses. Yet clearly even a nit-picker could have no problem calling Obama “African American” - that he is more directly than most. **curlcoat** , for all I know some indentured servants had it as bad as some Black slaves. Some may have been as horribly abused and the slavery condition may have even have been passed on to a next generation. I defer to others with more knowledge of history than I possess as to that. But the history of the Irish immigration into America and of the experiences of the generations that followed birthed from those immigrants was not pervasively controlled by systematic institutions of slavery in this country, nor by the historic effects of those institutions. In fact poorer small land owners of Irish descent were among the ranks of slave owners and even those who did not own a slave were often among those most against emancipation. It was important to them that there was someone lower on the ladder than they were. Irish immigrants had it bad. But to compare the two is (I am sure unwittingly) offensive. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906/29 "2008-12-22T00:18:06Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > No need to apologise for your opinion, I was genuinely curious. Ireland isn’t the backwater it once was etc. By the way I am somewhat dubious about that story about your grandfather or great-grandfather having been brought as a slave to the US. Although there were forms of indentured servitude in this country right into modern times I don’t think slavery existed here in the timeframe you’re talking about. It wasn’t there, it was here. The family lore is that he was sold by his parents in Ireland during the potato famine to somebody/ies (don’t know who) who shipped him overseas and then resold to whoever owned the coal mine here. Now, family lore isn’t exactly always factual, but I have found information here and there that indicates that when things were really bad during the famine, young boys were sold to raise money for the rest of the family, and also because that was really the only way to get food and shelter for anyone, including the kid being sold. Other information says that none were sold/stolen over there, that it all happened here once the young boys made it across the Atlantic and had no prospects or protection here. It’s all really hazy of course, and one reason seems to be because the Irish themselves that live here aren’t making a big deal out of it. Even if the slavery was all bunkum, the Irish were treated horribly here, yet all we have is St Patricks Day which isn’t even a day off work! No quotas, scholarships, Irish History month. I think the Irish are just more accepting of the evils that can happen, and they just move on! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906/30 "2008-12-22T00:43:14Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Whatever the quality of your imagination, your grasp of history is sadly lacking. Pretty much anyone in the U.S. who is identified as African American really is the descendant of slaves. Barack Obama is an extraordinarily rare exception. Up until 1807, all Africans entering the U.S. were brought as slaves. From 1897 to 1861, quite a few more Africans were brought into the U.S. illegally as slaves. None came in between 1087 and 1897? I honestly don’t know since all I got was a public school education and that far enough back that we didn’t focus on black history. > [@](#): > > There were no countries in Africa where people were choosing to emigrate and picking the U.S. as their destination. From 1861 until the early 1960s, Africa was nearly completely ruled as colonies by Europeans who did not take well to local peoples depleting the labor force by emigration, so there were still (effectively) no African immigrants. In the 2000 census, there were a bit over 330,000 people noted as black immigrants from Africa with an additional 80,000 noted as mixed race. Given the 2000 census figure of almost 35,000,000 blacks in the U.S., you will note that the number of descendants of slaves is nearly 99% of the U.S. black population. Even people who immigrated from places in the Caribbean were simply the descendants of slaves taken to those lands, so they still had a slavery background. OK, so several generations ago, one or two of their ancestors were probably slaves in some country. How does this justify “separate but equal”? > [@](#): > > Your ancestor was brought as an indentured servant, if anything. That one I tend to doubt, as indentured servants did not work in coal mines. It must have been my grandmother’s father that was brought over as she is the one from Black Diamond, where the mine was. Her father died when she was very young, so she had only hazy memories of him and his life, and the only thing we can be sure of is he was born in Ireland and apparently came over here when quite young. We cannot trace anything in Ireland because his name was changed here. Black Diamond was a company town and my grandmother had nothing good to say about the way it was back then - now it is just the average bedroom community and nothing much is left from the mining days. Once her father (and their source of income) died, they were booted out of their home as women and children had no value there, and went to Seattle where her mother worked as a cook for some rich family. Gram was the first of her family to go to school, at least here in the States. > [@](#): > > When blacks consider slavery in the U.S., they have to see the effect slavery–along with an additional 100 years of second class citizenship–had on their entire population. What affect is it now having, other than what they try to claim? They are free to do and be whatever they want, yet they are still identifying with slavery? I just don’t understand that mindset. I doubt that there is any race/people who did not have some sort of horrible time in their history - the Irish famines, the Asian boat people, etc - yet as far as I can tell only the black people continue to demand special consideration to make up for acts done well over 100 years ago. Get over it already. There are Asian people here who had extreme hardship during their actual lives, and they are simply taking responsibility for themselves and making good lives. Shoot, there are _white_ people who lived thru hell yet don’t allow it to define their lives. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906/31 "2008-12-22T01:15:36Z")
> [@Omega\_Glory](#): > > Of course I think it was solely the change in term, which is why I said that. Wait, I never said anything like that at all, did I? That is the message I got from “If blacks calling themselves “African American\*” causes so much trouble, then why are they better off today, than when they were known as Negroes or Coloreds?” > [@](#): > > You claimed that people calling themselves AA was causing some kind of harm. What harm? Is a majority of their population living a good life all across the US? I don’t know since the only ones I know live here in S Cal, and here the answer is a resounding no. Of course we do have some black people who are doing just fine, but many, probably the majority, are living poor, in crime ridden areas and undereducated. To me, this seems to be because they are still living as slaves, expecting Uncle Sam to take care of them instead of a plantation owner, and Sam does try with all of the special programs. Yet generations later, it seems that far too many blacks are not much better off than their slave ancestors. Perhaps if they quit identifying with their slave ancestors…? > [@](#): > > Please provide some examples, because it seems to me that the modern fashionable terms used to refer to the descendants of American slaves has nothing to do with their quality of life at all. There are problems in the black community, but I see no reason to believe that what they call themselves is one of them. Also, I don’t know one black person who’s said the prefer to be called African American, and I know plenty of blacks. African American is what quite a few of them call themselves here, with pride and a bit of a challenge. “Look, my great great grandfather was a slave, you take care of me/you owe me.” > [@](#): > > I have no idea why you think that the first Latino or Asian President won’t get a lot of attention. They will, as will the first woman. I said high office, not just President. I’m not sure how much attention the first of those will get, I suppose it depends on when it happens. I’m not sure anyone will be moved to tears as they apparently were over Obama, and I doubt that having an Asian president will cause Asians to demand all kinds of special consideration. > [@](#): > > Blacks from other countries are usually very careful to make that clear, so no I don’t believe there are very many blacks from the West Indies or Africa who call themselves African American. How is it being thrown in anyone’s face? If people want to be as clear as they can be about where their ancestors come from, so what? How does that hurt you? Will you be ranting about Americans who like to call themselves Italians, next? I am not ranting, I am theorizing. I don’t care where anyone came from, but those blacks that I have known that identify with Africa and/or call themselves AA have acted like stereotypes. The best thing they want is to be separate but equal. We have a huge Latino and Asian population here, and altho the Mexicans have a lot of their culture here, and the various Asians have their own little towns, they do not go about with chips on their shoulders and expectations of handouts and respect they haven’t earned. > [@](#): > > Do you realize that whatever your relative went through is nothing like what happened to the slaves and their relatives? It was just one family member, and had so little effect that you don’t even know which one it was. Actually, all of my ancestors came here due to the problems in Ireland, my maternal great grandfather is the only one we know who was a slave. At least we think we know that. It had so little effect on us because we didn’t dwell on it - one reason why I know so little about it is because it simply wasn’t important to our day to day lives. I have to imagine that being starved out of their country was an equal if not greater effect to the Irish than living as slaves was to those brought from Africa - is anyone trying to make up to the Irish for that? Did anyone ever? Note that I am not asking anyone to do so, because that is old news now and we’ve moved on. Heck, I don’t want to envoke Godwins Law, but what about the Jews? Is Germany still paying them back for what they did to them? > [@](#): > > We’re talking about generations of black society who were effected by slavery and the aftermath. Just because you’re happy to be born in the U.S. doesn’t mean you have to be happy with the circumstances that caused it. We’ll never know what would have happened on the W. Coast of Africa if Europeans hadn’t gone down there. And we’ll never know what would have happened to Ireland if the British hadn’t messed around in there. It doesn’t appear to be anything as simple as happy to be born in the US but remembering one’s history - the self identifying AAs that I have known have not been happy people. They have been defensive, sometimes offensive, entitled and angry. Somewhere someone owes them something because some ancestor of theirs was a slave. Not happy doesn’t begin to describe it. Picture living with a bunch of Jesse Jacksons. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906/32 "2008-12-22T01:37:04Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Irish immigrants had it bad. But to compare the two is (I am sure unwittingly) offensive. Interesting that you think it is an offensive comparison right after you say you don’t know enough about history to know if it is a _valid_ comparison. Perhaps this is because black history at length is taught yet the history of every other non-British non-white people is glossed over, hard to say. We do have enough history of the Irish, the Italians, the Jews that came to this country to know that they all had it very bad for a goodly amount of time, yet each one of those groups eventually earned respect and a place in the country. Even the illegal Mexican immigrants here are making a better living and moving up in society much faster than many blacks that were born here and had the opportunity at an education, not to mention already speaking English and having had a much better start in life than rural Mexico. Why is this? What is the problem with the blacks in the US that they still make up so much of the poorer part of our country? ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906/33 "2008-12-22T02:33:46Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Is a majority of their population living a good life all across the US? I don’t know since the only ones I know live here in S Cal, and here the answer is a resounding no. Well, it might be a good idea to gather more information, before you start “theorizing” about the ills of an entire population based on the people you know. Your theories aren’t going to be very strong if you don’t have facts to back them up. Twenty-four percent of blacks are living in poverty. Seventy-six percent are not. > [@](#): > > Of course we do have some black people who are doing just fine, but many, probably the majority, are living poor, in crime ridden areas and undereducated. To me, this seems to be because they are still living as slaves, expecting Uncle Sam to take care of them instead of a plantation owner, and Sam does try with all of the special programs. Yet generations later, it seems that far too many blacks are not much better off than their slave ancestors. Perhaps if they quit identifying with their slave ancestors…? So, that’s all it’s going to take? The fact that someone who has an education from an inferior school system doesn’t matter? Or that they’re growing up without two parents, and their sole parent is likely to be under-educated and young? > [@](#): > > African American is what quite a few of them call themselves here, with pride and a bit of a challenge. “Look, my great great grandfather was a slave, you take care of me/you owe me.” I’m wondering how many blacks you know, and how many of them really feel entitled to handouts because of slavery. > [@](#): > > I said high office, not just President. I’m not sure how much attention the first of those will get, I suppose it depends on when it happens. I’m not sure anyone will be moved to tears as they apparently were over Obama, and I doubt that having an Asian president will cause Asians to demand all kinds of special consideration. Asians and Hispanics don’t have the same history in this country that black Americans do. Not to say that there wasn’t a great deal of discrimination towards them, of course. I absolutely believe there will be tears when those milestones are reached, but without crystal balls, no sense going back and forth. Which blacks have demanded special consideration because of Obama’s win? > [@](#): > > I am not ranting, I am theorizing. I don’t care where anyone came from, but those blacks that I have known that identify with Africa and/or call themselves AA have acted like stereotypes. The best thing they want is to be separate but equal. We have a huge Latino and Asian population here, and altho the Mexicans have a lot of their culture here, and the various Asians have their own little towns, they do not go about with chips on their shoulders and expectations of handouts and respect they haven’t earned. You keep saying “separate but equal”. Can I get some examples of what blacks as a group are doing that makes you say this is what the population wants? What about the blacks you know who identify as “black”? How are they doing? > [@](#): > > Actually, all of my ancestors came here due to the problems in Ireland, my maternal great grandfather is the only one we know who was a slave. At least we think we know that. It had so little effect on us because we didn’t dwell on it - one reason why I know so little about it is because it simply wasn’t important to our day to day lives. I have to imagine that being starved out of their country was an equal if not greater effect to the Irish than living as slaves was to those brought from Africa - is anyone trying to make up to the Irish for that? Did anyone ever? Note that I am not asking anyone to do so, because that is old news now and we’ve moved on. Heck, I don’t want to envoke Godwins Law, but what about the Jews? Is Germany still paying them back for what they did to them? You don’t think your Irish ancestors ability to integrate into society is part of the reason it had so little effect on you? You didn’t let your family’s troubles get you down, because society didn’t hold you down for hundreds of years. I know all about NINA , etc. but you must realize that if you as the great grandchild of a slave (let’s just call that for now) did not face the adversity that the grandchildren and great grandchildren of black slaves did. Who said anything about paying anyone back? > [@](#): > > And we’ll never know what would have happened to Ireland if the British hadn’t messed around in there. It doesn’t appear to be anything as simple as happy to be born in the US but remembering one’s history - the self identifying AAs that I have known have not been happy people. They have been defensive, sometimes offensive, entitled and angry. Somewhere someone owes them something because some ancestor of theirs was a slave. Not happy doesn’t begin to describe it. Picture living with a bunch of Jesse Jacksons. You know, maybe it’s you who’s attracting these kinds of people. Quotes like these: “Look, my great great grandfather was a slave, you take care of me/you owe me.” “they do not go about with chips on their shoulders and expectations of handouts and respect they haven’t earned.” “and I doubt that having an Asian president will cause Asians to demand all kinds of special consideration.” Make you sound like the one with the chip on _your_ shoulder. You admit that you know very little about the black population as a whole, yet you have no qualms about throwing that kind of stuff out it’s the gospel truth. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906/34 "2008-12-22T02:39:29Z")
**Dseid** , I was a kid in 1989, so I don’t remember when the movement began, but I have my doubts about how much it caught on in the black population. I’m sure it is/was the preferred term in some areas, but I’d wonder if the Media and Jesse weren’t just doing their own thing, for the most part. It was a long time ago, though, so maybe it did catch on, then die out over the years. Sorry for the dp. I tried to edit this into the previous post, but ran out of time. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906/35 "2008-12-22T03:50:55Z")
> [@Omega\_Glory](#): > > Well, it might be a good idea to gather more information, before you start “theorizing” about the ills of an entire population based on the people you know. Your theories aren’t going to be very strong if you don’t have facts to back them up. Twenty-four percent of blacks are living in poverty. Seventy-six percent are not. Cite? This is so totally against my experience that I really would like to see this. > [@](#): > > So, that’s all it’s going to take? The fact that someone who has an education from an inferior school system doesn’t matter? Or that they’re growing up without two parents, and their sole parent is likely to be under-educated and young? I don’t know what it is going to take, but I will note that I grew up in poverty with an education from an inferior school system from 1 - 4th grade and then again in high school. I have no education past high school. I never expected anyone to take care of me other than me, and I certainly never had any scholarships offered to me so I could get a better education, nor doors opened for employment due to quotas. Teaching any people that they deserve something simply for being born creates entitlement and dependency. > [@](#): > > I’m wondering how many blacks you know, and how many of them really feel entitled to handouts because of slavery. Uh, S Cal? Lotsa black folk here. Some living across the street and down the block. I have no idea why some of them seem to feel entitled to whatever it is that they are so angry about but when I was working I ended up dealing with so many that said they couldn’t be fired no matter how crappy a job they did “because I’m black” (and some added “so you owe me”). We see reports of crime being more or less excused because the poor black teenager didn’t have a good upbringing - ignoring all the other races that grow up poor in lousy conditions. Heck, for some bizarre reason they seem to think they are above the noise & blue laws as they crank up seriously obscene rap at 2 am. And before you say it, I am not talking about all blacks. > [@](#): > > Asians and Hispanics don’t have the same history in this country that black Americans do. Not to say that there wasn’t a great deal of discrimination towards them, of course. I absolutely believe there will be tears when those milestones are reached, but without crystal balls, no sense going back and forth. Which blacks have demanded special consideration because of Obama’s win? So, because of something that was done to black people way back before any of my ancestors stepped foot here, I am to be all excited that Obama won because he is black? Piffle. Jesse Jackson has been demanding all sorts of stuff, but then he would probably be doing the same no matter who won. I think there is also another thread about another black celeb doing the same. As well as the news stories in the LA Times about how the “poor blacks will finally have a voice”. > [@](#): > > You keep saying “separate but equal”. Can I get some examples of what blacks as a group are doing that makes you say this is what the population wants? What about the blacks you know who identify as “black”? How are they doing? The blacks that I know who are not expecting to be treated differently do not tell me how they indentify, just as I don’t tell folks that I identify as Irish unless we are talking about those sorts of things. The ones I know who self identify as AA had African posters in their cubes at work (they had never been there and never intended to go), had incredibly entitled attitudes, brought up their color any time there was any problem with how well they did their jobs. A couple were mad that the state hadn’t paid them for their whole education, some were mad if they didn’t get a big raise when their work was barely passable. We had one who threatened a supervisor with physical violence when she was told to quit sleeping at her desk, and who later threatened me (I was lead) with a knife when I told her that her 90 days would soon be up so if she wanted to keep this job she needed to straighten up and fly right. I’d had enough of her at that point so I took the knife off of her and called the cops - then had to go thru months of crap because she claimed race discrimination. Despite security cameras showing her sleeping at her desk and waving the knife around. I almost lost my job over the hassle to the company. Etc. It was a reoccuring theme. I have worked with people of all colors, races and religions and have only had serious trouble with black people. And no, not all of them. > [@](#): > > You don’t think your Irish ancestors ability to integrate into society is part of the reason it had so little effect on you? You didn’t let your family’s troubles get you down, because society didn’t hold you down for hundreds of years. I know all about NINA , etc. but you must realize that if you as the great grandchild of a slave (let’s just call that for now) did not face the adversity that the grandchildren and great grandchildren of black slaves did. The Irish faced centuries of abuse elsewhere, yet when they came to the new world they just did their best to fit in, despite the fact the natives hated them. The Mexicans are still facing adversity yet more and more of them (usually the children of the immigrants) are part of our every day society here. The Jews were slaughtered and tortured yet they just go about life. Only (some of) the blacks keep insisting that they be compensated for things that happened long before any of them were born. > [@](#): > > Who said anything about paying anyone back? Pretty much every discussion on black history. They came here as slaves to the white man so the white man has to make up for that. > [@](#): > > You know, maybe it’s you who’s attracting these kinds of people. Quotes like these: > > “Look, my great great grandfather was a slave, you take care of me/you owe me.” > > “they do not go about with chips on their shoulders and expectations of handouts and respect they haven’t earned.” > > “and I doubt that having an Asian president will cause Asians to demand all kinds of special consideration.” > > Make you sound like the one with the chip on _your_ shoulder. You admit that you know very little about the black population as a whole, yet you have no qualms about throwing that kind of stuff out it’s the gospel truth. I don’t recall saying I know very little about the black population as a whole but whatever. I “throw out that kind of stuff” because these are the opinions I have formed of a section of society that I have had quite a bit of experience with. Perhaps since I was poor and worked low end jobs I had more exposure to it? Perhaps it is a west coast thing (tho looking at the news, I rather doubt it). The only other place I have experienced this sort of entitlement is from rich white guys (and to some extent, their wives and children), who I guess have a slightly better reason to feel entitled to special treatment than some random black person. At least in the case of the rich white folks, they just seem to think they are owed special treatment and not government and employer handouts. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906/36 "2008-12-22T04:13:37Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Interesting that you think it is an offensive comparison right after you say you don’t know enough about history to know if it is a _valid_ comparison. No. That it is _not_ what I said. I said, quite clearly, that I do not know if it is true that _some_ Irish immigrants endured slavery conditions. Accepting it as true for the sake of argument, there is _no valid comparison_ to the institutionalized slavery that _defined_ the experience of Blacks in this country both as an extant institution and later from pervasive after-effects. It is similar to saying that since one Italian had been murdered it is the same thing as a Holocaust and what are the Jews going on about, when Italians don’t keep bringing up that Italian who was killed. Sorry, but your Blues aint like their Blues. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906/37 "2008-12-22T04:19:39Z")
Oh, a [cite for the poverty number.](http://www.infoplease.com/spot/bhmcensus1.html) > [@](#): > > 24.3% > Poverty rate in 2006 for single-race blacks. This rate was down from 31.1% in 1986. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906/38 "2008-12-22T04:24:28Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Cite? This is so totally against my experience that I really would like to see this. Here. > [@](#): > > . Poverty rates remained statistically unchanged for… blacks (24.3 percent) [http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income\_wealth/010583.html](http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/010583.html) I said you don’t know very much about blacks, since you had to ask how the majority of them were doing. There’s your cite, and I think that’s about as far as we’re going to get. There’s just no point in continuing this conversation when you believe that people were excited about an Obama win because of things that happened long before your ancestors got here (your relative was supposedly an Irish slave. If it was that long ago, blacks were definitely second class citizens, then). Or that “. Only (some of) the blacks keep insisting that they be compensated for things that happened long before any of them were born.” Sure, opportunities on par with what your immigrant relatives had were available for blacks who wanted it since slavery ended. Everyone else is working hard and blending in, it’s only “some of the blacks” who won’t get with the program. Or any of the quotes, I posted earlier. I’m not denying that there are some real problems in parts of the black community, but although you swear you’re not ranting, that’s exactly what it looks like. Lots of generalized statements being thrown around as fact, and being supported using anecdotes about random people you know. Earlier, you were assuming the majority of blacks were living in poverty. There’s no real substance here. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906/39 "2008-12-22T06:23:31Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > None came in between 1087 and 1897? I honestly don’t know since all I got was a public school education and that far enough back that we didn’t focus on black history. My post included a typo–one that would be obvious to anyone even vaguely familiar with American history. I typed “1897” when it should have read “1807.” 1807 was the year that the Constitution made the importation of slaves illegal. (Where you came up with 1087, I have no idea.) A standard public school education should have permitted you to recognize that the periods I outlined were the successive phases of the importation of slaves, the lack of any African immigrants, and the tiny number of recent African immigrants. Your claim that you doubted that there were that many descendants of slaves in the black community is an astounding admission of a lack of knowledge. I suspect that you are not really prepared to make a constructive contribution to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906/40 "2008-12-22T06:41:11Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > No. That it is _not_ what I said. I said, quite clearly, that I do not know if it is true that _some_ Irish immigrants endured slavery conditions. Accepting it as true for the sake of argument, there is _no valid comparison_ to the institutionalized slavery that _defined_ the experience of Blacks in this country both as an extant institution and later from pervasive after-effects. > > It is similar to saying that since one Italian had been murdered it is the same thing as a Holocaust and what are the Jews going on about, when Italians don’t keep bringing up that Italian who was killed. > > Sorry, but your Blues aint like their Blues. From this I assume that you think that my great grandfather was the only Irish person to ever suffer slavery, starvation, etc? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-overidentify-race/477906.md?page=3)