# Do we really "owe" Trump a chance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 13, 2016, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733 "2016-11-13T00:19:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733/1 "2016-11-13T00:19:04Z")
He has spent the last year telling and showing us exactly who he is. After every “holy crap!” moment, both sides kept expecting him to start behaving like a mature individual. He never did. So why NOW to we expect him to change? Wasn’t it Maya Angelou who said, “When people tell you who they are, Believe them.” A friend sent this [excellent article](http://www2.nybooks.com/daily/s3/nov/10/trump-election-autocracy-rules-for-survival.html) today. Though my quote is lengthy, the article is much longer. I encourage all to read the whole thing. It begins: > [@](#): > > _“Thank you, my friends. Thank you. Thank you. We have lost. We have lost, and this is the last day of my political career, so I will say what must be said. We are standing at the edge of the abyss. Our political system, our society, our country itself are in greater danger than at any time in the last century and a half. The president-elect has made his intentions clear, and it would be immoral to pretend otherwise. We must band together right now to defend the laws, the institutions, and the ideals on which our country is based.”_ > > That, or something like that, is what Hillary Clinton should have said on Wednesday. Instead, she said, resignedly, _“We must accept this result and then look to the future. Donald Trump is going to be our president…”_ \… > > Hours later, President Barack Obama was even more conciliatory: _“We are now all rooting for his success in uniting and leading the country. The peaceful transition of power is one of the hallmarks of our democracy. And over the next few months, we are going to show that to the world….We have to remember that we’re actually all on one team.”_ > > The president added, _“The point, though, is that we all go forward with a presumption of good faith_ in our fellow citizens, because that presumption of good faith is essential to a vibrant and functioning democracy.”\* As if Donald Trump had not conned his way into hours of free press coverage, as though he had released (and paid) his taxes, or not brazenly denigrated our system of government, from the courts and Congress, to the election process itself—as if, in other words, he had not won the election precisely by acting in bad faith. …\ The author goes on to list the rules of surviving in an autocracy: > [@](#): > > Rule #1: Believe the autocrat. He means what he says. > … > Rule #2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality…Panic can be neutralized by falsely reassuring words … > … > Rule #3: Institutions will not save you. It took Putin a year to take over the Russian media and four years to dismantle its electoral system; the judiciary collapsed unnoticed. > … > Rule #4: Be outraged. > … > Rule #5: Don’t make compromises. > … > Rule #6: Remember the future. Nothing lasts forever. Donald Trump certainly will not, and Trumpism, to the extent that it is centered on Trump’s persona, will not either. Failure to imagine the future may have lost the Democrats this election. They offered no vision of the future to counterbalance Trump’s all-too-familiar white-populist vision of an imaginary past… \*“Good faith” in the opposition served Obama really well the last eight years, right? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733/2 "2016-11-13T00:23:44Z")
Given the anxiety many on the Left felt about the possibility DJT wouldn’t concede, I don’t find these two speeches to be out of hand with our preferred expectations… other than who was giving them, of course. But do _we_ “owe” Trump a chance? No more than what he is legally allowed, and even that should be blocked, delayed, and fought as much as possible. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733/3 "2016-11-13T00:32:04Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Given the anxiety many on the Left felt about the possibility DJT wouldn’t concede, I don’t find these two speeches to be out of hand with our preferred expectations… other than who was giving them, of course. > … Color me a complete dufus, but I didn’t understand what you meant by the part I underlined. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733/4 "2016-11-13T00:38:59Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > He has spent the last year telling and showing us exactly who he is. After every “holy crap!” moment, both sides kept expecting him to start behaving like a mature individual. He never did. So why NOW to we expect him to change? Eh, his victory speech was a lot more mature than I expected it to be. While of course I don’t think he will really “change” who he is, I think he’ll at least take the job seriously (whether he can actually handle it or not is another matter). ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733/5 "2016-11-13T00:42:02Z")
We do. Sam Harris compared it to him being the pilot of a plane going down. He have to root for him to pull it out, regardless of whether he is the pilot we would prefer. I’m rooting for him, though his actions already have me less than optimistic. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733/6 "2016-11-13T00:45:49Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Color me a complete dufus, but I didn’t understand what you meant by the part I underlined. We expected, wanted Trump to concede when he lost. It was, in fact, a matter of contention during and after the 1st debate and was part and parcel of the “rigged election” rhetoric and response: “The election is rigged!” (“Will he concede?”) So… Hillary lost and had to give a concession speech. Anything else would have been a betrayal of this principle. Obama’s side lost and, in adherence to the principles of American Democracy, is working for a peaceful transition of power. Once January 20th rolls around, then it’s a new ballgame for the two of them. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733/7 "2016-11-13T00:52:19Z")
When everyone involved in the Cliven Bundy standoff walks because the prosecutors chose not to push the case or obviously sabotaged it by being sloppy, that will be when I know he intends on being an utter prick. ---
**Author:** ![purplehearingaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@purplehearingaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehearingaid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733/8 "2016-11-13T00:54:22Z")
No ! He didn’t give Obama a chance ! ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733/9 "2016-11-13T00:57:01Z")
The only thing we owe him is a watchful eye. He’s a con artist, first and foremost. I fully expect him to try to spend as much time as possible at his Trump Tower, where he can rent out rooms for the extensive numbers of strap-hangers that travel with the president, and charge the cost to the taxpayers. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733/10 "2016-11-13T01:00:09Z")
We don’t owe that fucker the time of day. I hope the protests for the inaugural are huge and continue for every single day that pervert serves as the usurper in chief. Democrats should oppose every single thing he proposes and not give him a single vote on anything. If he wants a resolution proclaiming Girl Scout Week, filibuster it. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733/11 "2016-11-13T01:02:50Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Eh, his victory speech was a lot more mature than I expected it to be. While of course I don’t think he will really “change” who he is, I think he’ll at least take the job seriously (whether he can actually handle it or not is another matter). He knows that he needs to appear presidential because he is now playing the role of president. Putting on a role is something he is good at. When he was playing a candidate he whipped out the outrageous rhetoric. Now, I do not think he has the ability to do the job well, even if he tried, but he might actually try hard (and fail). Also of course even if everything he said when in campaign mode was just mere words, we don’t actually know where he stands on anything, and his policy could potentially shift at the drop of a hat. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733/12 "2016-11-13T01:05:37Z")
The Masha Gessen piece you linked is well-written and a valuable caution. Still, I’m less pessimistic than she is that this outcome is likely, and not just because I didn’t (unlike Gessen) escape an authoritarian state rather recently. The US has long-standing democratic institutions, traditions, and norms - Russia didn’t. Judges and civil servants by and large support them. I think it’s good that BHO and HRC do their part to keep up appearances there with the peaceful transfer of power boilerplate, because once people stop believing in those things, the magic is gone. (And it’s absolutely appropriate for people who aren’t BHO or HRC to kick up a fuss.) Other reasons it may not be quite as country-endingly awful (while still being really awful for lots of people in lots of places): Federalism protects us, too - the President can’t just, say, order all the county sheriffs to round up troublemakers, he has to convince them to do so. (Yes, many may not be hard to convince if he tries.) Plus, for all the talk about Trump’s taste for revenge, I will also point out that his acts of revenge thus far in his life have been limited to mean tweets, strange letters, and the occasional frivolous lawsuit. I have some hope that his laziness and limited intellect will keep him from throwing Farendholt & co. into gulags. ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733/13 "2016-11-13T01:14:25Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > We don’t owe that fucker the time of day. I hope the protests for the inaugural are huge and continue for every single day that pervert serves as the usurper in chief. Democrats should oppose every single thing he proposes and not give him a single vote on anything. If he wants a resolution proclaiming Girl Scout Week, filibuster it. Trump derangement syndrome. Liberals already see every Republican as racists, hateful Neanderthals. So Trump comes along and fights back. He didn’t back down his like predecessors. Because Liberals are really bullies, they can’t handle it. Liberals built up Trump to be the personification of evil because they can’t stand opposition. They can’t stand that Americans aren’t validating their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733/14 "2016-11-13T01:18:26Z")
Do you want to live in a functional society or not? This is the crux of it. Do you want to live in a society that is polarized more and more until we hit the point of civil war and millions are dead or don’t you? Do you want to be part of the solution or part of the problem? Coming together and giving him a chance doesn’t mean you accept his solutions just that you’re allowing a conversation to take place. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733/15 "2016-11-13T01:32:13Z")
The left warned us about an autocracy when Bush was elected. The right said the same thing about Obama. I’m not taking any thing seriously until autocratic policies are actually implemented. BTW, Trump already took over the media. Not because he’s autocratic and has influence over the media, but because the media is biased toward sensational and simple minded stories and he figured out how to exploit that. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > We don’t owe that fucker the time of day. I hope the protests for the inaugural are huge and continue for every single day that pervert serves as the usurper in chief. Democrats should oppose every single thing he proposes and not give him a single vote on anything. If he wants a resolution proclaiming Girl Scout Week, filibuster it. Is that how you would want Republicans to act when a Democrat is President? I was against Republican obstructionism and now I’m against Democratic obstructionism. Campaigning is not the same thing as governing. Trump hasn’t made a single policy proposal yet, so it’s too early to start opposing him. I am giving Trump a chance until he actually starts governing poorly. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733/16 "2016-11-13T01:36:13Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > We don’t owe that fucker the time of day. I hope the protests for the inaugural are huge and continue for every single day that pervert serves as the usurper in chief. Democrats should oppose every single thing he proposes and not give him a single vote on anything. If he wants a resolution proclaiming Girl Scout Week, filibuster it. So we should be more like Republicans? ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733/17 "2016-11-13T01:37:16Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > We don’t owe that fucker the time of day. I hope the protests for the inaugural are huge and continue for every single day that pervert serves as the usurper in chief. Democrats should oppose every single thing he proposes and not give him a single vote on anything. If he wants a resolution proclaiming Girl Scout Week, filibuster it. See, I just can’t behind this. If he proposes privatizing social security, sure, filibuster, march the streets, go nuclear. But if he were to propose something sensible, like an infrastructure program that doesn’t completely ignore cities’ needs, there’s no reason to oppose that. That’s a good program. In other words, hold his feet to fire when he proposes dumb stuff, but don’t oppose for the sake of opposition. Oppose for the sake of getting better results. ---
**Author:** ![SaharaTea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@SaharaTea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaharaTea)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733/18 "2016-11-13T01:38:29Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Once January 20th rolls around, then it’s a new ballgame for the two of them. They are staying in D.C. for Sasha’s last years of high school, poor souls. But Obama has to be careful about how vocal he is. The current members of the ex-Presidents Club have generally avoided public criticism of their successors’ policies, and I could see a backlash. We need powerful voices from current and future leaders if we are to move forward. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733/19 "2016-11-13T01:39:46Z")
I certainly don’t owe Trump a chance to roll back the rights of Blacks, Muslims, immigrants, women and gays. But I don’t expect him to want to remain in office once he’s fixed trade and tax laws in his favor. Then we’ll have to deal with something worse: President Pence. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733/20 "2016-11-13T02:04:39Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I certainly don’t owe Trump a chance to roll back the rights of Blacks, Muslims, immigrants, women and gays. Maybe you should try giving him a chance not to. I fear though that many on this board will never be able to see past their own hate and fear. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-really-owe-trump-a-chance/771733.md?page=2)