# Do we treat kids like the Saudi's treat their women? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 19, 2016, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-treat-kids-like-the-saudis-treat-their-women/746593 "2016-02-19T23:36:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2016, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-treat-kids-like-the-saudis-treat-their-women/746593/21 "2016-02-20T18:53:10Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > My point is that, maybe, Saudi men or women don’t really think their women are inferior, any more then people in the US think their children are inferior. Naw, I’m perfectly fine to admit an 8yo is, in many ways, “inferior” to an adult. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2016, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-treat-kids-like-the-saudis-treat-their-women/746593/22 "2016-02-20T19:33:16Z")
Well, one major difference is that we don’t charge kids with “adultery” or “fornication” if they’re molested. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2016, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-treat-kids-like-the-saudis-treat-their-women/746593/23 "2016-02-20T20:50:50Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > My point is that, maybe, Saudi men or women don’t really think their women are inferior, any more then people in the US think their children are inferior. But my point is that people in the U.S. do think their children are inferior. As I said in my earlier post: > [@](#): > > they are small, vulnerable, unable to care for themselves (in varying degrees as they grow), don’t have the knowledge and experience to properly judge situations and make appropriate choices, and the decision-making function in their brains have not yet fully formed All of these things make them inferior to adults. That doesn’t mean that parents don’t love their children, want the best for them, seek to protect them, and believe that once they mature they will be every bit the equal of other adults. Believing that individuals need assistance or need to be protected is fine if the individuals really do need protection (it’s why we have speed limit laws in school zones, and special protections for the blind, for example). It’s the fact that the Saudi’s make this determination about women without evidence, and apply it to entire class of people who constitute 50% of the population that makes it so unacceptable. As for why they do it, I think that historical tradition rooted in religion, combined with benefits for the group currently holding the power, is a reasonable explanation not only for the Saudi’s treatment of women, but for many other outdated cultural norms. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2016, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-treat-kids-like-the-saudis-treat-their-women/746593/24 "2016-02-20T21:21:18Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’d like to think that if we had evidence that children were born with a full complement of wisdom and intelligence and it was evident they were fully capable of taking care of themselves, we’d allow them to have a lot more freedom. Maybe it would take a while to convince everyone. But it seems to me as soon as we started seeing youtube videos of babies parallel parking SUVs, it would only take a few years before we started issuing them driver’s licenses. So why has it taken the Saudis’ so long to adapt to new information? You’d think so, wouldn’t you? But every time I suggest that a 6 year old can learn to load the dishwasher, someone loses their mind. Then I mention that 6 year olds used to mine coal, and 6 year olds used to cook dinner over an open fire while watching their baby brothers while their parents were in the fields, and then people stop talking to me. \*History \*is evidence that children are capable of much more than we ask of them today. We’re remarkably good at ignoring evidence when we don’t like what it suggests. And I suspect if you asked Saudi men, and most Saudi women, they’d give you all the same excuses we give about our kids: that this group of people need extra protection, and that if you love them, you want to keep them safe. We don’t think women need the same protections - until we do. Until we tell young women to walk in groups or ask a man to walk them to their car after dark, or to bring a man with them to the car dealership when negotiating a purchase. There are definitely ways in which we infantalize women through a sense that they need extra protection; we just hide it better. But I think I understand, and share, what **Maastricht** ’s really contemplating, although it was a bit lost in the examples: _people often act how they do because they’re afraid of what others will think, not how they would act if it was up to them alone_. And, yeah, totally. I would love to have free range kids, but I don’t, because I’m afraid others will think I’m neglectful and take them away. I’d rather have competency crippled kids than no kids. So I do what I can to encourage their competency in the home, but they’re not going to learn how to cross the busy streets or ride the bus on their own until they’re old enough that I won’t be charged with neglect for leaving them unsupervised. In much the same way, it’s a beautiful day out today, temperature in the sixties, sunny, just a light breeze…if I wrote society’s rules, I’d be taking a walk outside topless today. But I don’t. Because I know if I do, I’m likely to be arrested. Even if I lived in New York City, where female toplessness is legal, I wouldn’t, because I know I would cause a commotion, and I’m just not up to dealing with that. Get me out far enough into the country where no one will see me, or in a community where the social rules are different, and this shirt is coming off. We’re social animals. Playing by the rules of the society is what we do if we want to reap the benefits of being in a society, and the things that come with that, like mates, shared food and medical care. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2016, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-treat-kids-like-the-saudis-treat-their-women/746593/25 "2016-02-21T04:12:50Z")
Its a terrible analogy. The restrictions we place on children as a society are lifted when they are no longer appropriate, eg when they’re old enough to know better. Saudi women have the restrictions on them for their entire lives, they are NEVER presumed to be trusted and capable of looking after themselves. Even when they are 80 years old and in no danger of being a “sexual temptation” to anyone, they still can’t drive a car or walk outside without a veil and a male companion. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2016, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-treat-kids-like-the-saudis-treat-their-women/746593/26 "2016-02-21T08:25:46Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Wring. The poster specifically noted physical capabilities as the reason why we treat people in certain ways. They then went on to say that women were equal to men on those defining physical characteristics, while noting that children were not. You’re talking averages. There are plenty of women bigger and stronger than plenty of men. If physical strength were important, some men wouldn’t be allowed and some women would be. Well men and women are treated pretty much the same in the US, some jobs can still have tests for relevant physical characteristics. That has little to do with being allowed to drive though. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2016, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-treat-kids-like-the-saudis-treat-their-women/746593/27 "2016-02-21T08:35:59Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > I don’t really want to argue if either of these (over)protectiveness is justified (Okay then, in both cases, I would say it isn’t. As other cultures and times prove). My main point is that in both cultures, shame, a.k.a. “What will the neighbors think of me” plays a bigger part then rational arguments, in determining how much protection should be extended. (For a related concept, see, [shame-culture versus guilt culture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shame_society)). As I said, I think you are way overestimating restrictions on children, except perhaps the very youngest. More importantly, they are not enforced by the law. And one or two examples of wackos is not the same as accepted law. > [@](#): > > And that in both cases, sexual shame and honor plays a larger part then rationally justified. A cultural link between sex and honor is something that [masculine cultures ( like the US and Saudi Arabia)](http://geert-hofstede.com/national-culture.html) have in common. Such a link is largely absent in more feminine cultures like Sweden. I’d venture it has more to do with religion than anything else. It is not as strong in at least some parts of the US than it was 40 years ago. BTW there are some places where children get treated the same. Child actors get the same pay as adults. They are supposed to work less (a union rule, not a government one) and they have to get tutored if they work more than a certain number of hours a week. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2016, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-treat-kids-like-the-saudis-treat-their-women/746593/28 "2016-02-21T08:45:08Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Its a terrible analogy. The restrictions we place on children as a society are lifted when they are no longer appropriate, eg when they’re old enough to know better. > > Saudi women have the restrictions on them for their entire lives, they are NEVER presumed to be trusted and capable of looking after themselves. Even when they are 80 years old and in no danger of being a “sexual temptation” to anyone, they still can’t drive a car or walk outside without a veil and a male companion. Indeed - the nature of childhood is that it is a temporary condition. If children are oppressed, it’s solely to enable them to cease being children, by turning into functional adults. Oppressing women for their entire life has no such purpose. ---
**Author:** ![ProDentite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@ProDentite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ProDentite)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-treat-kids-like-the-saudis-treat-their-women/746593/29 "2016-02-22T02:18:11Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > I see an interesting parallel. In short: > > Saudi men don’t let their women out of the house alone. If they do, they will get severely judged by other men, women, and maybe arrested by the religious police. People will say they are not protecting their womenfolk from sexual attacks. > And this is a relatively new phenomenon; Saudi women went about much freer before the eighties. Increased wealth has allowed women to stay indoor, not have to work, and it is a status symbol to have a Pakistani driver to drive them everywhere they have to be. > > American parents don’t let their kids out of the house alone. If they do, they will be severely judged by other by other men, women, and parents, and they may get [arrested by Child Protection Services](http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/20/living/feat-md-free-range-parents-under-attack/). People will say they are not protecting their kids from sexual attacks. > And this is a relatively new phenomenon; kids went about much freer before the eighties. Increased wealth has allowed kids to play indoor, for parents to sypervise them with electronics, and it is a status symbol for their parents to be able to drive them everywhere they have to be. > > Am I the only one who sees a parallel here? > > I thought of this when I read The National Geographic. There’s an interesting article on Saudi women in this month’s issue. The women themselves explain how they feel about wearing a veil, the sexually segregated community, and about the constrictions that society puts on them. [The article can be read here for free](http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2016/02/saudi-arabia-women-text). A quote from the article: > > I’m Dutch, but we usually adopt most of the US cultural mores some time after you do. > > I’m a parent myself and I notice a cultural restriction, even in the Netherlands, in how free range I can let my kid be. > Sure, I can make a realistic assessment of how safe my particular kid will be, judging traffic, bullies, weather, water, and the teensy tiny chance of meeting a child rapist. I also take into account the fact that my kid will on the whole be safer if he is trusted with age-appropriate independence to learn and get self-confident. > But I also noticed that I have to take into account what other parents will think of me, and that there is a tendency to judge parents, erring on the side of overprotectiveness. Even here, and from what I’ve read, even more in the US. I’m not sure if you have spent time in the united states but as an American who has lived in England, Japan, Scotland, and France I can tell you for certain that 80% of what the news reports about life in America is grossly over exaggerated with a heavy emphasis placed on stories that highlight the vocal/extreme minority and important but relatively insignificant social issues in American society. Unless a child is extremely young there is no way CPS or the police are going to intervene unless the kids in question are breaking the law. Once kids are 12 or 13 many parents will let them stay home and watch younger siblings and start giving them more and more independence. The stories about free range kids are extreme outliers and stuff like that never comes up in “normal” everyday conversation amongst parents here. I think the analogy you have brought up is interesting but not really valid because it is a scientific fact that the pre-frontal cortex of the human brain is not developed until the age of 25 or so. This means that children literally should not have the same amount of freedom as adults because it could be immediately hazardous to their well being due to their lack of ability to make cognitive decisions under the pressure of strong emotional signals in their CNS. Saudi Arabian women are of course fully developed and able to make all the decisions needed to be safe in the world. They are being repressed and not given a fair opportunity to enjoy their lives. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-treat-kids-like-the-saudis-treat-their-women/746593/30 "2016-02-22T17:01:40Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Well, one major difference is that we don’t charge kids with “adultery” or “fornication” if they’re molested. No, but we do charge them with child pornography when they have naked pictures of themselves on their phones. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-treat-kids-like-the-saudis-treat-their-women/746593/31 "2016-02-22T17:44:53Z")
This strikes me as a tortured analogy. Are teenagers and children over-protected and coddled? Yes. Are there some superficial similarities? Sure. But that’s about all I can say. I had a job and was driving in high school at 16; many of the other kids, boys and girls, did too. Women, in general, never do either in Saudi Arabia. People, men, women, boys, girls, should be afforded the level of autonomy they demonstrate the ability to handle. I’m not a parent, so I can’t say what a reasonable age is for various freedoms, but as an uncle, I do see my niece and nephews and recognize that, were the decisions up to me, they might be ready or not ready for certain freedoms that other kids their ages are or are not. Yes, protecting your kids is good, but too much shelters them from the world to the point that they never learn how to deal with those hardship and build coping mechanisms. Cuts, bruises, fears, responsibilities, failures, and broken hearts are all among the scars of a well-adjusted human being. So, yeah, I’d like to see kids get more freedom and I’d like to stop seeing people butting their heads in situations where parents are reasonably giving their kids some leeway. And maybe this argument in reverse is reasonable, that women in Saudi Arabia are treated like children, but at least even the children that are sheltered here are at least sheltered with good intention. There, it’s just sexism. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-treat-kids-like-the-saudis-treat-their-women/746593/32 "2016-02-22T17:48:12Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Its a terrible analogy. The restrictions we place on children as a society are lifted when they are no longer appropriate, eg when they’re old enough to know better. > > Saudi women have the restrictions on them for their entire lives, they are NEVER presumed to be trusted and capable of looking after themselves. Even when they are 80 years old and in no danger of being a “sexual temptation” to anyone, they still can’t drive a car or walk outside without a veil and a male companion. In Saudi children are protected but woman are seen as inferior to men and are oppressed and do not enjoy the same freedom as men ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-treat-kids-like-the-saudis-treat-their-women/746593/33 "2016-02-22T17:59:50Z")
Gender equality against Islam, says Kerala Sunni leader Postby survivor » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:51 am Gender equality against Islam, says Kerala Sunni leader. [India News: Latest News India, Today Breaking News Headlines from India and Updates in Bharat | The Indian Express](http://indianexpress.com/article/india/) … im-leader/ Prominent Sunni Muslim leader Kanthapuram Aboobacker Musliyar Saturday said gender equality was “against Islam”. Addressing a Sunni students’ camp in Kozhikode, the orthodox Sunni leader said, “Where has man-woman equality taken place? It is not going to happen. Gender equality is against Islam, society and human kindness.” “The world is controlled by men. Women have strength in other areas… They can deliver babies. Only women can nurture babies. Her duty is to rear children and feed the husband,’’ Musliyar said. Claiming that women do not have “courage”, Musliyar asked if there is a woman doctor who can perform a major surgery. “Women doctors can do general medicine or manage pediatrics. But they don’t have the courage for big surgical interventions,’’ he said. Referring to a recent controversy over segregation of girls and boys in a Muslim-run college, the orthodox Muslim leader said the demand that girls and boys be allowed to sit together was meant to destroy Islam. He said that the allegation of a Muslim woman journalist that children used to be sexually abused at madrasas was baseless, and added that those who raise the allegation should bring forth evidence. Musliyar has a history of making controversial observations over women issues and their role in society. He had recently come out against women reservation in local governing bodies. He had also advocated marriage of minor girls to ensure morality and discipline in society. They say that his words are controversial but the truth is that in Islamic countries these beliefs are commonly held [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-we-treat-kids-like-the-saudis-treat-their-women/746593.md?page=1)