# Do women ever complain about being "Nice Girls"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 17, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809 "2009-03-17T22:39:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/41 "2009-03-18T18:59:05Z")
Personally, I prefer to stand for the unwholesome. Of course, I never claimed to be nice. But I’m pretty sure I’m having a hell of a lot more fun than Jinx. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/42 "2009-03-18T19:10:21Z")
> [@There\_Goes\_a\_Tenner](#): > > I think that would be a counter to the “Nice Guy”, the “Easy Girl” because these women are trying to fulfill a role that they think men want- they show skin, have sex easily, and not realizing that their actions aren’t sending in the right direction toward the man they want, or if they do, its just for a night. Conversly, the “Nice Guys” are trying to fulfill a role that they think women want- they have the long conversations, and they listen to these women while trying to hide the face they want to sleep with them, and their actions aren’t landing them a girlfriend. I think you nailed it. The girl equivalent to the “nice guy” are the ones who want to have a relationship with a certain guy so much that they let him walk all over them. They give it up when the guy wants it, they put up with being second fiddle to everything else, they get zero intamacy from the guy, etc. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/43 "2009-03-18T20:28:05Z")
> [@MaddyStrut](#): > > I was going to say this. To be fair, I haven’t heard that excuse in years. When I did, it was rarely that the girls were truly intimidating men. Most of the time, they were either aiming out of their league or so full of bitterness they drove men away. Kind of like “nice guys”. Didn’t Maureen Dowd write a column recently that was basically this complaint? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/44 "2009-03-18T20:47:58Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Personally, I prefer to stand for the unwholesome. Of course, I never claimed to be nice. But I’m pretty sure I’m having a hell of a lot more fun than Jinx. 😉 I’m pretty sure Donnie Osmond has had a hell of a lot more fun than **Jinx**. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![gurujulp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba9def/32.png) [@gurujulp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gurujulp)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/45 "2009-03-18T21:14:53Z")
> [@Jennyrosity](#): > > -SNIP > To answer the OP, I think the female equivalent is the Slutty Girl, who thinks by giving men want they want straight away they stand a better chance of getting a boyfriend, when in fact the opposite is generally true. The similarity to our Nice Guy type is this: He offers Total Devotion because he thinks that’s what women want; she offers Hot Monkey Sex because she thinks that’s what men want. And in fact in both cases they’re often right, but what they’ve missed is that we don’t want those things straight away. We want to feel we’ve earned it. I agree. > [@Sunspace](#): > > :: nods :: > > Smart. Is. Sexy. Shit, I will settle for obviously literate… if she can discuss the book too, then let’s move to the hot monkey sex… ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/46 "2009-03-18T22:42:28Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > But those girls don’t usually say “he left because I was too nice and he just likes to date psychobitches”. Those girls usually either think a) they weren’t devoted ENOUGH so he left OR b) they weren’t pretty enough. > > What makes the “nice guy” thing distinctive in my mind is that it’s about being too virtuous for the other sex to properly value. It always has this hint of condescension-- “I’m always the kinder/more devoted/more put upon partner, yet I always get dumped. I guess they want a typical guy–an asshole”. The subtext is that they are uniquely kind and sensitive for their gender. This is exactly why “Nice Guys” irritate me so much. They aren’t content with just whining about how they can’t get/keep a girlfriend, they have to throw in the whole “My only flaw is my excessive VIRTUE! If only all women weren’t from Bizarro World, where good is bad, they’d all be throwing themselves at me like I deserve!” thing. Ugh. > [@](#): > > \*On the other hand, when a woman says “I intimidate men with my intelligence”, the subtext is “unlike most women, who either are stupid or play stupid”. This is why I think it’s the counterpoint. It’s about being mad at the other gender for not celebrating how exceptional you are. \*This is probably the closest thing to a female “Nice Guy”, but to my mind even “Men are intimidated by my intelligence” or “Men only like bimbos” isn’t quite as bad as “Women only like assholes”. I think most people do prefer romantic partners who are roughly their equals in terms of intelligence, and there probably are many men who’d prefer not to date a woman who was a LOT smarter than they were. While Ms. Intimidating Intelligence is almost certainly wrong about why men don’t like her (hint: it’s because she’s obnoxious), at least she isn’t claiming that all men suffer from some inverted value system and that they just don’t know what’s good for them – namely, her. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/47 "2009-03-19T00:41:01Z")
On the one hand, the catch cry is “Be yourself”. While on the other hand the caveat is “change most of your behaviour” in order to attract a mate. Life sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/48 "2009-03-19T00:57:37Z")
I’ve always thought of the “Nice Guy” as the guy who can’t figure out why he has no girlfriend when he’s obviously, “not mean, not ugly, not poor, not bad,” but, if pressed, probably couldn’t tell you a single thing that he _is_. In other words, he thinks people should be loved for what they’re not. I’m a bit of a “Nice Girl” in that respect. I’m not ugly. I’m not stupid. I’m not mean. I’m not a lot of bad things. I’m also deeply shy, uninteresting, and rarely get out. So I have no boyfriend. The difference between me and those “Nice Guys” is that I know it. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/49 "2009-03-19T01:04:09Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Hey, if Hot Monkey Sex is on the table, I’m pickin’ it up, earned or unearned. > > 😉 I’ve never been clear on this…does that mean there’s flung poo? ---
**Author:** ![aaslatten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f14d63/32.png) [@aaslatten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aaslatten)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/50 "2009-03-19T01:04:35Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > This is exactly why “Nice Guys” irritate me so much. They aren’t content with just whining about how they can’t get/keep a girlfriend, they have to throw in the whole “My only flaw is my excessive VIRTUE! If only all women weren’t from Bizarro World, where good is bad, they’d all be throwing themselves at me like I deserve!” thing. Ugh. > \*This is probably the closest thing to a female “Nice Guy”, but to my mind even “Men are intimidated by my intelligence” or “Men only like bimbos” isn’t quite as bad as “Women only like assholes”. I think most people do prefer romantic partners who are roughly their equals in terms of intelligence, and there probably are many men who’d prefer not to date a woman who was a LOT smarter than they were. While Ms. Intimidating Intelligence is almost certainly wrong about why men don’t like her (hint: it’s because she’s obnoxious), at least she isn’t claiming that all men suffer from some inverted value system and that they just don’t know what’s good for them – namely, her. I agree with most of this, but aren’t the “men are intimidated by my intelligence” women also implying that most men value looks above all else, that they just don’t take the time to appreciate intelligence because they’re too shallow? (The “nice guy” question has been hashed to bits on this message board, but I’d like to add that many of these guys seem to be upset that really hot women aren’t attracted their “niceness.” They want women to not be so focused on looks, but they are ironically focused on looks. I do agree that women are less likely to be affected by the problem of shopping outside their league.) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/51 "2009-03-19T01:46:46Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > This is exactly why “Nice Guys” irritate me so much. They aren’t content with just whining about how they can’t get/keep a girlfriend, they have to throw in the whole “My only flaw is my excessive VIRTUE! If only all women weren’t from Bizarro World, where good is bad, they’d all be throwing themselves at me like I deserve!” thing. Ugh. It’s an exaggeration, but it works as self justification because it’s so common for women to choose nasty men over men who aren’t nasty. Much less nice. When a serial killer like [Richard Ramirez](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Ramirez) gets fangirl letters and marriage and you are sitting home alone after another failed date, I expect it’s not hard to convince yourself that what women **really** want is a thug. That’s an exaggeration of the truth, but there are plenty of women like that out there. And it’s a perception that most women seem unconcerned with dispelling. And frankly demonizing any man who refers to himself as a “nice guy” as a loser and freak doesn’t help that perception. And no, I’m not referring to myself; I’d never be foolish enough to refer to myself as nice around a woman. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/52 "2009-03-19T02:06:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And frankly demonizing any man who refers to himself as a “nice guy” as a loser and freak doesn’t help that perception. For once, I agree with **Der Trihs** … and this comes from another fella who doesn’t refer to himself as a “nice guy.” I find it disheartening when women paint these broad stereotypes of the self-described “nice guy.” Is it really so hard to believe that some of these guys are losing out because they get beaten to the punch by men who exude cockiness or who feed women all the right lines? As **DT** said, it’s all-too-common for women to pick the nasty guys over the ones who aren’t. I don’t doubt that a lot of these “nice guys” are indeed losers, but it seems to me that people tend to paint them with an overly broad brush. Frankly, it’s frustrating to hear women say things like “Oh, those ‘nice guys’ are just spineless wimps who have not confidence! We know confidence when we see it, and that’s why the people you call ‘jerks’ are successful with women.” As one of my female friends says though, women often overestimate their ability to detect confidence. I’ve found that many guys who are unsuccessful in dating can be very confident in their intellect or other abilities; they’re just less likely to flaunt this in public. Similarly, I think that the “jerks” are like schoolyard bullies. They lack confidence, and so they make up for it by exuding cockiness, arrogance, and a generally unpleasant demeanor. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/53 "2009-03-19T02:16:59Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Do young women have a counterpart to the Nice Guy? What is the personality profile of a typical Nice Girl? If they aren’t complaining about it on the Dope, who do they complain to? And what advice do they receive? I’ve seen it, and I think I’ve encountered it on the SDMB too. While “nice guy” can mean wimpy, unassertive, and all that, I found that in a female context, “nice girl” means “fat”. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/54 "2009-03-19T02:37:56Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > I’ve seen it, and I think I’ve encountered it on the SDMB too. > > While “nice guy” can mean wimpy, unassertive, and all that, I found that in a female context, “nice girl” means “fat”. Ow. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/55 "2009-03-19T03:19:35Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s an exaggeration, but it works as self justification because it’s so common for women to choose nasty men over men who aren’t nasty. Much less nice. When a serial killer like [Richard Ramirez](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Ramirez) gets fangirl letters and marriage and you are sitting home alone after another failed date, I expect it’s not hard to convince yourself that what women **really** want is a thug. That’s an exaggeration of the truth, but there are plenty of women like that out there. Well sure, and there are also plenty of guys out there who’ll date a stupid, raging psycho, **if** she’s really attractive too so the whole “he’s only focused on looks” justification works just as well. They’re both really handy when it comes to either gender avoiding the truth about striking out constantly - the common denominator in these failures is usually yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/56 "2009-03-19T03:37:08Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Well sure, and there are also plenty of guys out there who’ll date a stupid, raging psycho, **if** she’s really attractive too so the whole “he’s only focused on looks” justification works just as well. They’re both really handy when it comes to either gender avoiding the truth about striking out constantly - the common denominator in these failures is usually yourself. According to you. I see it differently; I see plenty of foolish men going for looks above everything, and foolish women preferring scum over decent men. The difference IMHO being that men as a group are more willing to admit that they have an obsession with looks, while women as a group want to blame the common female attraction to thuggery on some supposed massive character flaws of any man who refers to himself as nice and on the alleged “confidence” of the thugs in question. ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/57 "2009-03-19T12:00:28Z")
> [@SHAKES](#): > > Ya know, If the “I’m so intelligent; men are intimidated by me” is the nice guy equivalent; then I should have a wide open market. > > I’d give up my first born for a woman like that. WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU ALL?!?!? The inherent problem is that, similar to Nice Guys who are not necessarily nice people, I’m So Intelligent Women are not necessarily so intelligent. Often it is said by women who don’t have a clue about the real reasons they are unable to find a partner. So the woman that you meet that makes you think “whoa, crazy neurotic with tons of baggage and whines a lot!” is going home and telling her friends that she is so intelligent that she intimidates you. That’s where she is. ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/58 "2009-03-19T12:16:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > According to you. I see it differently; I see plenty of foolish men going for looks above everything, and foolish women preferring scum over decent men. The difference IMHO being that men as a group are more willing to admit that they have an obsession with looks, while women as a group want to blame the common female attraction to thuggery on some supposed massive character flaws of any man who refers to himself as nice and on the alleged “confidence” of the thugs in question. I think the flip side of this is also true, though, that at least on this board, men have been more quick to blame all women for their own dating problems. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/59 "2009-03-19T13:32:40Z")
> [@Tracy\_Lord](#): > > I think the flip side of this is also true, though, that at least on this board, men have been more quick to blame all women for their own dating problems. Well, who else are we going to blame, silly? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/60 "2009-03-19T14:04:05Z")
> [@aaslatten](#): > > I agree with most of this, but aren’t the “men are intimidated by my intelligence” women also implying that most men value looks above all else, that they just don’t take the time to appreciate intelligence because they’re too shallow? Probably, but I don’t find this as condescending as saying that one’s romantic failures are solely because all members of the opposite sex make decisions that aren’t merely shallow but are totally warped and irrational. If forced to choose, which of these would you consider less arrogant and condescending: 1. I can’t get a date because [members of the opposite sex] would rather date a hot-looking idiot than give a chance to someone with my far superior intelligence. 2. I can’t get a date because [members of the opposite sex] would rather date a serial killer than give a chance to someone who’s as remarkably kind and good as I am. If the typical Nice Guy Lament were “Why do women always date _handsome_ jerks (or _rich_ jerks) instead of nice guys like me?” then I’d find them less irritating. Still _pretty_ irritating, but no more so than Ms. “Why do men always date Barbie types instead of intelligent women like me?” At least the latter gives some roundabout acknowledgment that the speaker might actually possess a real flaw (not being attractive enough). She’s very likely wrong about what the true dealbreaker is (her attitude/personality, not her looks or brains), but that’s still a smidgen closer to reality than believing one’s only problem is “I’m just not enough of a jerk!” I don’t think I’ve ever encountered a true female equivalent to the “Nice Guy”. Although in fairness, there are also very obnoxious female personality types who I believe have no true male equivalents. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809.md?page=4)