# Do women ever complain about being "Nice Girls"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 17, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809 "2009-03-17T22:39:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/61 "2009-03-19T14:10:09Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Every so often some young man will come in here to complain that women only date assholes, and what’s a Nice Guy like him supposed to do. > > These posts are invariably followed by about 5 pages of comments from women (and more than a few men) about how the Nice Guy is usually either a wimp or a passive-aggressive and the OP needs to work on his personality. Slightly off-topic (but commenting on something in the OP), but I actually agree with both sides of that argument. On one hand, it does seem to me, that when it comes to women, nice guys finish last. Based on guys I know, I see an inverse correlation between niceness (sensitivity, maturity, sense of fairness) and success with the opposite sex. I’m not sure which way the cause-effect relationship goes though. On the other hand, the kind of guy who thinks women should be all over him because he’s such a swell dude has other problems than being nice. > [@SaharaTea](#): > > Yes - guys who date super controlling and/or high maintenance women. In some cases you know it’s because she’s really hot, but I see a lot of guys with women who are both bitchy and unattractive. I suppose it’s because they think they can’t do any better. There are definitely guys like this, but I’ve got to say the opposite is much more common. I’d say a woman being high-maintenance is a real turn off for lots of men. And by high maintenance I mean the kind of woman who’s rude to people, has a short fuse, excessively loud etc. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/62 "2009-03-19T14:12:21Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > On one hand, it does seem to me, that when it comes to women, nice guys finish last. Based on guys I know, I see an inverse correlation between niceness (sensitivity, maturity, sense of fairness) and success with the opposite sex. I’m not sure which way the cause-effect relationship goes though. Eh. I think you may be confusing cause and effect here. I’ve known many women who dated jerks, but I’ve known very, very few who dated ugly jerks. ISTM that good looking people are just more likely to be jerks. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/63 "2009-03-19T14:30:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Eh. I think you may be confusing cause and effect here. I’ve known many women who dated jerks, but I’ve known very, very few who dated ugly jerks. ISTM that good looking people are just more likely to be jerks. deleted ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/64 "2009-03-19T14:38:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Eh. I think you may be confusing cause and effect here. I’ve known many women who dated jerks, but I’ve known very, very few who dated ugly jerks. ISTM that good looking people are just more likely to be jerks. Well, I did say in my post that there might be an alternative cause-effect (guys who are successful becoming jerks because of that). As for your point, I can only state my experience: jerks really seem to do better, all other things being equal. For a guy, attitude and confidence are all important. And there’s something about the jerk that they come across well to women initially. It could be that women don’t like guys who seem like they’re trying to hard: who agree with everything the woman says, are always nice to her etc. And the jerk comes across as refreshingly frank. Too late she realises he’s just a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/65 "2009-03-19T14:39:04Z")
> [@aaslatten](#): > > The “nice guy” question has been hashed to bits on this message board, but I’d like to add that many of these guys seem to be upset that really hot women aren’t attracted their “niceness.” They want women to not be so focused on looks, but they are ironically focused on looks. I do agree that women are less likely to be affected by the problem of shopping outside their league. There you have it. Every whining loser guy thinks that the hot babe should lower her superficial standards and see him for his “inner person”. On a somewhat related topic, I was watching Sarah Silverman on Bill Maher last night. She made an interesting point that there are a lot of women who act rude and obnoxious and then say “oh I’m just a Diva” “You’re not a Diva” said Sarah, “your a ‘cunt’.” You can’t simply declare yourself a “diva” and treat that as an excuse to act like an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/66 "2009-03-19T14:44:53Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > On a somewhat related topic, I was watching Sarah Silverman on Bill Maher last night. She made an interesting point that there are a lot of women who act rude and obnoxious and then say “oh I’m just a Diva” “You’re not a Diva” said Sarah, “your a ‘cunt’.” You can’t simply declare yourself a “diva” and treat that as an excuse to act like an asshole. I’ve observed that people who frolic in the label of “telling it like it is” are rarely particularly nice people. ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/67 "2009-03-19T14:49:25Z")
> [@Small\_Hen](#): > > I’ve always thought of the “Nice Guy” as the guy who can’t figure out why he has no girlfriend when he’s obviously, “not mean, not ugly, not poor, not bad,” but, if pressed, probably couldn’t tell you a single thing that he _is_. In other words, he thinks people should be loved for what they’re not. > > I’m a bit of a “Nice Girl” in that respect. I’m not ugly. I’m not stupid. I’m not mean. I’m not a lot of bad things. I’m also deeply shy, uninteresting, and rarely get out. So I have no boyfriend. The difference between me and those “Nice Guys” is that I know it. Wow. Let’s go out on a date **Small Hen** and see who out-averages the other first! I’m the very definition of unremarkable, so in theory we would get along great. If your idea of a fun evening is a game of Trivial Pursuit, I’m your man. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/68 "2009-03-19T14:50:28Z")
Right. “Telling it like it is” is just an excuse for being a jerk. Civilized people know how to be diplomatic. They also know when to shut up. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/69 "2009-03-19T15:08:50Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Probably, but I don’t find this as condescending as saying that one’s romantic failures are solely because all members of the opposite sex make decisions that aren’t merely shallow but are totally warped and irrational. If forced to choose, which of these would you consider less arrogant and condescending: > > 1. I can’t get a date because [members of the opposite sex] would rather date a hot-looking idiot than give a chance to someone with my far superior intelligence. > > 2. I can’t get a date because [members of the opposite sex] would rather date a serial killer than give a chance to someone who’s as remarkably kind and good as I am. > > If the typical Nice Guy Lament were “Why do women always date _handsome_ jerks (or _rich_ jerks) instead of nice guys like me?” then I’d find them less irritating. Still _pretty_ irritating, but no more so than Ms. “Why do men always date Barbie types instead of intelligent women like me?” At least the latter gives some roundabout acknowledgment that the speaker might actually possess a real flaw (not being attractive enough). I think that’s because, as others have already said, men are a lot more likely to candidly admit that they prefer good-looking women. I doubt that you’d find a single guy who would say that looks have no effect on a man’s desire. In contrast, it’s hardly uncommon for women to say “Of course we want nice guys! Why wouldn’t we?” or “Who says that women tend to be drawn to jerks? That’s ridiculous.” Now, I’ll heartily admit that a lot of women do admit that bad boys have a certain appeal. A lot of them would also admit that a significant number of their women are drawn to unsavory men. My point is simply that I think there’s a reason why women are more likely to ascribe their lack of success to some physical shortcoming. That’s because men are much more likely to admit that they place disproportionate emphasis on physical appearance, whereas women are more likely to deny that the whole “bad boy” mentality is attractive to their gender (or even to a significant portion of their gender). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/70 "2009-03-19T15:11:57Z")
> [@gravitycrash](#): > > Wow. Let’s go out on a date **Small Hen** and see who out-averages the other first! > I’m the very definition of unremarkable, so in theory we would get along great. If your idea of a fun evening is a game of Trivial Pursuit, I’m your man. 🆒 Hey, I’m really interesting, and I like Trivial Pursuit too! > [@JThunder](#): > > I think that’s because, as others have already said, men are a lot more likely to candidly admit that they prefer good-looking women. I doubt that you’d find a single guy who would say that looks have no effect on a man’s desire. Curiously, in “what do you look for in a mate?” surveys, men consistently list “sense of humor” before anything else. Women do too, but to a _lesser_ extent. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/71 "2009-03-19T15:17:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Curiously, in “what do you look for in a mate?” surveys, men consistently list “sense of humor” before anything else. Women do too, but to a _lesser_ extent. To a man, does “sense of humor” mean “willing to put up with a lot of crap”? “Able to laugh off wet towels on the floor and the toilet seat up” unlike the last “uptight” partner they had? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/72 "2009-03-19T15:18:12Z")
I’m not really sure what the female equivalent to a Nice Guy is, but I suspect that it’s similar in bitterness and blame. “Can’t handle a strong woman like me” roughly translates to “I’m a castrating bitch.” Or it’s about her looks. Yes, we men care about looks. We don’t owe anyone an apology for that, we’re not about to change, and it’s not a character flaw. It’s the way we evolved, and as unfair as it may seem, it’s reality. But let’s talk briefly about Nice Guys. There seems to be an assumption that there are only two types of men, nice ones and jerks, and that they are at opposite ends of the spectrum. In fact, they are at the same end of the spectrum, where they wallow in insecurity. Jerks are just better at covering it up. The opposite end is the kind of guy secure enough in himself to not suck up AND not put others down. Women don’t reject Nice Guys because of some character flaw. It makes total sense from an evolutionary perspective. Let’s compare men to songs for a second. Imagine your favorite rock song, something with a real edge. Now take out the offensive lyrics, because we wouldn’t want to offend anyone. And remove the distortion from the guitars, because geez, distortion sounds so messy. And don’t make the drums so loud, we don’t want to hurt anyone’s ears. And take out the syncopation, because we don’t want to offend little old ladies. What are we left with? Elevator music. A nice guy is the dating equivelent to Muzak. There’s nothing there to offend, but there’s nothing there to get excited about, either. Now let’s take this guy back to the stone age. Can you really depend on a guy like that to protect his family from a sabertooth tiger? What do you suppose happened to women that were attracted to guys like that? Do you think that they survived long enough to pass on their genes? “Yeah, but we’re not in the stone age anymore!” No, but our attraction mechanisms are. Our attraction mechanisms are finely tuned systems that evolved long before there was anything resembling humanity, and are not subject to any sort of higher logic. Blaming women for making poor choices is like blaming them for being the products of a billion years of evolution. Whining about it isn’t going to undo even a bit of it. So why do women like jerks? They don’t really. They like emotional strength. Jerks just so happen to display some of the same characteristics. I hope that makes sense. I’m still not fully awake yet. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/73 "2009-03-19T15:21:07Z")
Good lord. This is a whole lot o’thinkin’ (not that that’s a bad thing), but doesn’t it really come down to the fact that anyone who insists that they can’t get a date not because of any defect of _theirs_, but because of the warped standards and emotional inadequacies of _the entirety of 50% of the human race_, is not someone you wanna hang with? Anyone who thinks the problem is “everyone else” is a sad, delusional person who has no real sense of either themselves OR anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/74 "2009-03-19T15:28:31Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I hope that makes sense. I’m still not fully awake yet. That makes a lot more sense than I do even when I _am_ fully awake. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![melodyharmonius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/melodyharmonius/32/21310_2.png) [@melodyharmonius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/melodyharmonius)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/75 "2009-03-19T15:32:09Z")
I dated the Nice Guy. The kind that **Jenny** described earlier. And the emotional warfare he tried to inflict on me was amazing, even after we broke up and tried to “stay friends.” It became so toxic, I had to do exactly what she said - cut him off in a dramatic and total fashion. This after we’d already been broken up for over 2 years and I was dating someone else. I don’t know if “Nice Girl” equals fat. I’m fat, and definitely more a naughty girl than a nice one. But then again, \*\*elmwood \*\*doesn’t seem like my type. Anyway, to me, the equivalent of “Nice Girl” is the one who suddenly becomes the convenience store girlfriend. Y’know, the one where the guy can stop by for a quick bite, some supplies, maybe some laundry, and a roll in the hay. Then he’s up and on his way to his real life, not taking her with him. She’s his 7-11, always open and available, no matter what the hour. Everyone knows that you only go to the 7-11 when you need something quick, it’s not really where you do your serious shopping. Well, everyone but the 7-11 girl knows that. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/76 "2009-03-19T15:43:11Z")
Lest I get grouped with any whiny guys: I didn’t whine about the situation, and I don’t class myself as one of these hypothetical “nice guys” (actually, I haven’t really thought about it…) I was just making an observation. It’s a pretty unfashionable observation to make, because it’s used by so many guys as an excuse, but anyway… ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/77 "2009-03-19T15:46:39Z")
Is there any actual scientific basis for the kind of evolutionary psychology that **tdn** mentions? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/78 "2009-03-19T16:00:39Z")
> [@Tracy\_Lord](#): > > Is there any actual scientific basis for the kind of evolutionary psychology that **tdn** mentions? There is, but I doubt I can find any links to share. There’s a great book called Sperm Wars that I’ve been meaning to read for quite a while. The author backs up all of his claims with solid cites. But doesn’t it just make common sense? That we evolved to be attracted to certain traits? It’s pretty obvious by looking at the animal kingdom. It’s a scientific fact that peacocks with bad plumage spend their Saturday nights at home alone watching porn. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/79 "2009-03-19T16:26:05Z")
> [@Silver Tyger Girl](#): > > Hi, how you doing? If I said this every time I’d thought it in this thread, I’d have worn out my posting fingers by now. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809/80 "2009-03-19T16:33:41Z")
I think I’m in broad agreement with **tdn** , though, based on my observations of my own life. The biggest issue is that the label of “Nice Guy” tends to alienate guys in the middle to trending-emotionally-stronger ranges of the spectrum described. – Zer, former “Nice Guy”, now just a guy who happens to be nice [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-ever-complain-about-being-nice-girls/489809.md?page=5)