# Do women still appreciate "gentleman's-etiquette?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 8, 2001, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280 "2001-11-08T21:28:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Playdeaux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e99b99/32.png) [@Playdeaux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Playdeaux)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280/21 "2001-11-09T03:14:45Z")
I think that good manners are always charming, especially when they’re _not_ expected. If I reach a door first, I’ll hold it for whomever’s behind me. I agree with Mauvaise about not wanting to wait for someone to open a car door or pull out a chair. I also have a preference to seat myself, but that’s just a matter of personal comfort. I always have to scootch up, anyway. I also dislike someone holding a door for me when I’m more than 25 feet away, or when they hold it open while partially blocking it, so I’d have to squeeze past. I’ll usually just smile & wave them on. We may do the whole “No, after _ **you** _” thing for awhile before they give up. 😛 I grew up in the 60’s & 70’s, during what was probably the height of radical feminism. At that time it was considered politically correct for women to be quite rude when confronted with “chivalry.” I’m glad to see that the custom has survived in spite of that. ---
**Author:** ![GilaB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280/22 "2001-11-09T03:19:24Z")
I share the general opinion about hand-kissing. On top of that, many Orthodox Jews don’t touch (or don’t touch affectionately) unrelated members of the opposite sex, and I’m sure that there are people of other religions that might feel uncomfortable for similar reasons. I think that you should probably skip that one unless you know her really really really well. Other than that, yes, unless you have to go out of your way too much. Then I just feel really bad, since I’ve inconvenienced you. Also, don’t spend too much money on me - I’ll feel bad about that too. But coat-lending and door opening are highly appreciated. So is letting her have the last seat on the [insert form of mass transportation], especially if she’s wearing heels. Don’t worry about the walking nearer the street thing, though. I don’t think that most young women are aware of it. And I open doors for people also, without regard to gender. ---
**Author:** ![Erika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/47e85d/32.png) [@Erika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erika)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280/23 "2001-11-09T03:21:03Z")
I think that politeness is almost always a good thing…but some of these can be taken too far and land you in the weird/creepy category. I guess the rule should be to not make anyone uncomfortable…as I suppose that is supremely ungentlemanly. ---
**Author:** ![Ruby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/13edae/32.png) [@Ruby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280/24 "2001-11-09T03:22:47Z")
Absolutely, positively, YES! Mr. Ruby is always the gentleman. Always opening doors, putting on my coat, and walking on the street side. Another that hasn’t been mentioned is that when we travel, he always sleeps on the “door” side of the bed, presumably to protect his “little woman” 🙂 I do think it is a dying art. We women have done our best to destroy these wonderful chivalrous customs. Well, this is the new millenium after all. Who’d a thunk even Gloria Steinham would get married, ferchristsake?!? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![south333](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@south333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/south333)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280/25 "2001-11-09T03:33:31Z")
**Opening car doors** I don’t have a problem with men opening car doors for me. At my age it is very rare. (Once a little while back my date opened my car door before for me, I was in shock.) As for when I’m getting out of the car, thats just ridiculous. \*\* Hat-tipping \*\* Its nice if its done, but I’ve only seen that in old movies. \*\* Hand-kissing\*\* I don’t mind it. \*\* helping the lady with her coat on/off or giving her his jacket if she hasn’t one \*\* I always thought that giving a girl his jacket is just about the sweetest thing a guy could do. \*\* pulling out and pushing in her chair for her as needed\*\* I never felt that this was necessary, its just awkward for someone else to push in your chair for you. **rising at the table to greet someone who has just arrived** It doesn’t matter to me, but I don’t think its necessary, as long as you stand for the host. **putting the toilet seat down** Definately. ---
**Author:** ![DPWhite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d26b3c/32.png) [@DPWhite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPWhite)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280/26 "2001-11-09T03:57:50Z")
Here’s another one I remember: If a gentleman sees a lady with another gentleman, he should not say hello, but imperceptibly nod, and only say hi if she does. Apparently this is to save her from bizarre jealous questions coming from the fella she is with. This one I find a bit sexist. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280/27 "2001-11-09T04:01:54Z")
I, too, appreciate a courteous gentleman. ---
**Author:** ![Flutterby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Flutterby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flutterby)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280/28 "2001-11-09T04:16:42Z")
I had my hand kissed by a guy once… surprised me but I thought it sweet. I had just met him and was gonna shake his hand (friend of a friend) and I tried to shake it but instead he lifted my hand to his lips… and kiss! That kinda melted me… but yah in general I wouldn’t say do that as people might see it as inappropriate. As well it can make a girl uncomfy. As to the other stuff… I like it when a guy is nice. Holding the door, pulling out the chair etc etc. I think it’s sweet. And anyway if I was a guy I would probably do it myself. I already do the door thing anyway as Dad ingrained it in me not to let a door shut if there is someone behind you. I think I whacked him one too many times when I was a kid by just walking through the door and letting go. Tipping the hat isn’t nescessary as ballcaps aren’t good tipping hats… and not many men nowadays wear the proper type for that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280/29 "2001-11-09T05:57:31Z")
Many of these courtesies are dead metaphors, stripped from their context, and valued out of a sense of quaintness. In itself, I’ve got no problem with that, though if anybody thinks they actually want to be a woman in the societies where these customs were relevant, I think you’d better get yourself a library card. I like anachronism practiced for its own sake, which is why I dress like an extra from D.O.A. and start sentenses with, “_Say_, …” and end them with, “…, _see?_” So, if all you’re trying to do is grab a lot of nifty stuff from the past before it sinks out of memory, I’m with you. But in my opinion, most guys trying out this `chivalry' bit are phoney. I'm embarrassed for a guy whenever I hear him start in on the `Gee-golly, I sure like to put women up on a pedastal’ routine. Do women fall for this gag anymore? Some do, that’s a cinch, even when they know it’s just a line. And why not? If we refused to buy anything because the seller kept trying to sell us something, where would that get us? I understand, if you really want to do the gentleman schtick, whether you’re sincere or not, you need to know how actual women feel about it, and that’s what this thread and all the other door-holding threads are about. That’s the charitable interpretation. But keep in mind the less charitable interpretation – that these threads are posted by gallant posers trolling for female attention. The less you talk it up, the less phony you’ll sound. Just decide how you’re going to be, and live it. You see how hats keep coming up? Why not get a hat? Everybody likes wide-brimmed fedoras, and elbow-length gloves, but nobody wears them. Instead of going out of your way to open doors and pull up seats, which are almost too much, just get a hat, and tip it. Also, get yourself a silk hankerchief, and put it in your hankie pocket. You can keep a little white cotton one in a side pocket for your own boogers. The silk one is for her boogers. Or tears. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280/30 "2001-11-09T07:20:23Z")
If I see that she’s banging her forehead into the bedposts or wall, I’ll offer her a larger pillow as a buffer. I can’t help being nice like that, it’s just the kind of guy I am. ---
**Author:** ![Samui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@Samui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Samui)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280/31 "2001-11-09T07:47:22Z")
I was taught by my manners minded mother to never offer a handshake to a lady, only accept one. How does this gentlemanism sit with people? ---
**Author:** ![warmgun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecccb3/32.png) [@warmgun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/warmgun)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280/32 "2001-11-09T09:11:56Z")
If done with sincerity, these things will seem like the courtesies they are. I do them out of politeness and will continue to do so. Some, such as hand-kissing, must be decided on a case by case basis, but I have always gotten flattering responses from doing this. The key is that these must be done with grace and confidence. One thing bothers me, and I don’t know the solution. Sometimes when I open a car door for a woman, she feels she needs to reach over and unlock the door for me. This seems to negate the convienence I’ve just provided. It’s not that I don’t appreciate it, it’s just that would rather her enjoy letting me be the guy. Solutions? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280/33 "2001-11-09T10:24:49Z")
**Samui** , I was taught that handshakes where mostly a greeting among guys. Not that I don’t mind giving handshakes, and find a good handshake a good way of greeting, but I am accustomed to other ways. **warmgun** , accept it with a smile and a “Thank you”? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280/34 "2001-11-09T11:26:35Z")
My problem with these sorts of courtesies is that for them to work, you have to train women to **expect** them–they have to know to hang back and let him rush forward to the the door, they have to know to sit there in their car seat and wait for him to come around, they have to stand there by the coat rack and wait for him to find their coat, etc., etc. This bothers me for two reasons: One, I would never raise my daughter to think she was entitled to get out of anything just because of her plumbing and Two, most of this is more about making hte man feel good and manly, and not about making life easier for anybody, and that seems to me to be the antithesis of courtesy. I’m a nice person. I appriciate nice people. But I like - and perform–those gestures that actually make people’s lives easier, not the ones that exisit to say “Look at me! I’m not trash! I’ve got polish!” Ona parting note, I have noticed a trend among guys with “last gentleman on Earth” complexes. A great manay–though perhaps not most–have a pretty selective idea of “lady.” They hold doors, stand at the table, hold up jackets, etc., etc., for people they are willing to have sex with and, possibly, cute little old ladies. They tend to treat ugly, middle age women as men. Now, that says to me that all that “gentleman’s etiquette” is basically a form of flirting–of making potential sexual partners feel charitable towards you. Now, there is nothing wrong with that, but it seems silly to elevate to some sort of moral position: “I trreat ladies right” when it is a courting technique. ---
**Author:** ![Tygr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/df788c/32.png) [@Tygr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tygr)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280/35 "2001-11-09T15:03:16Z")
Heavens, **Manda JO**. If you observe a male selectively applying his chivalrous behavior, he most certainly does not deserve the appellation “gentleman”. A true gentleman will treat all women as ladies. > [@](#): > > for them to work, you have to train women to expect them… > > I would never raise my daughter to think she was entitled to get out of anything just because of her plumbing Actually, it’s really the opposite. When a women expects or is entitled to be treated ths way, she’s only a half-step away from taking it for granted, at which point she has stopped behaving like a lady. As for _training_, it really doesn’t take four years of charm school to know how to handle it. Behaving with grace, gentility and charm is a two-way street. It’s really not that difficult for a woman to respond in kind when a man treats her with charm. It’s somewhat like breaking in a new dancing partner. Each should have learned the other’s “cues” after only a few tries. As for “this is more about making the man feel good and manly”, again, a _ **true** _ gentleman does these things for his own self-aggrandizement. He does these things out of respect and also to show the lady he is with that she is special. His only reward is in knowing he’s done that. As for doing these things for ladies that are not of his aquaintance, a true gentleman believes that all women are special and deserve to be treated as such. ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Now, I have a question, which I’m going to try to phrase very carefully, knowing that it has the potential to be taken the wrong way. One aspect of gentlemanly behavior not yet addressed is ordering for a lady at a restaurant. Wait, wait. I don’t mean in the “You’ll eat what I order for you and LIKE it!” kind of way. I mean after discussing what she wants and after she has decided, _then_ the gentleman gives her order to the waiter. I believe this practice is not very common any more, have any of the ladies here experienced it, or have any of the gentlemen here practiced it? How did the ladies feel about it? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280/36 "2001-11-09T15:06:18Z")
Yes! Yesterday, my son and i got on the local bus and it was after school and crowded. We had to stand. There was this teenage guy who said \<“Hey, somebody get up and let this child sit down. And a woman too.” The girl next to him said, “Hey, I’m a girl too!” But I was so amazed. When you get a certain age, sometimes teenagers seem well.rude soemtimes. This one impressed me. Cool guy. ---
**Author:** ![Tygr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/df788c/32.png) [@Tygr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tygr)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280/37 "2001-11-09T15:13:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tygr \* > \*\*…a _ **true** _ gentleman does these things for his own self-aggrandizement. \*\* Ahem. I mean, of course, he “does _not do_ these things for his own self-aggrandizement.” ---
**Author:** ![TruePisces](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/truepisces/32/13628_2.png) [@TruePisces](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruePisces)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280/38 "2001-11-09T15:21:28Z")
I, for one, enjoy the common courtesies known as “gentleman’s etiquette”. I certainly don’t expect them, but they are a joy when they do occur. Some observations - **Opening Car Doors** - When the gentleman in question and I are coming at the car from the passenger side, I honestly do expect my door to be opened first. The reason? While the GIQ is walking around the car, unlocking & opening his car door, getting in the car and finally reaching across the seat to open the door, I’m standing outside freezing my assets off. In the time it would take for the GIQ to unlock and open my door (I don’t expect him to close it for me, just unlock and open), I can be in the car and reaching across the seat to unlock his door while he’s walking around the car. FWIW, I _do_ offer the same courtesy if I’m driving - regardless of gender. **Walking on the street-side** - My friend Gary does that. He even goes so far as to, if we’re crossing the street, to change the side of me that he’s on so he is closer to the oncoming traffic. I asked him about it once, and he was amazed that I’d never had it done for me before. It _is_ a dying art. But it makes me feel special, treasured - even if it’s only a close friend that does it. **Ordering dinner** - Personally, this is not something I have a problem with, as long as it’s talked about before hand and not assumed. (“Well, you always have the baked chicken and garlic pasta, so I thought that’s what you wanted tonight.” “No, tonight, I wanted the french onion soup.” “Oh, waiter!”) For the most part, when **lurker** and I go out, he does the ordering. And I like it that way. ---
**Author:** ![thinksnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thinksnow/32/2849_2.png) [@thinksnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thinksnow)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280/39 "2001-11-09T15:48:46Z")
From the [Chivalry is SO dea…](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=92274) thread: > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **me** > Similar to what **blur** said, I’ve got three doors between here and the cafeteria and we, typically 3 men and 2 women, take turns opening the doors on our way through and back. > > When I’m out and about, if I’m going through a door and someone is within a couple of steps of it, I’ll hold it open for them. The key there being “hold it open” as opposed to “open it specifically for them.” When on a date or even just out with female friends, I’ll usually open their car door first and I almost unconsciously make an effort to walk curb-side of them (something about offering a barrier between the traffic and them or something, I suppose.) It’s just one of those things. The car door makes sense, though, because, well, I have the keys, you know. > > **Stilleto** , you brought up the fact that women can carry a child, can be pregnant and that this should make them superior to men. The problem with this is that, IMO, it make the whole act of kindness or “chivalry” about sex, as opposed to benevolence. It turns it from holding a door because I happened to be there at the time to holding a door because you are able to have a child. _That_ makes it about sex and if that is the case, them the feminazis or womyn or whatever are then right to get pissed off if the man is only doing things because he hopes for a bit of action because of it. I’m not saying you fall into one of those groups, rather that it seems to me that the statement you made is representative of their camp (in my limited understanding of them.) > > As for helping people (or two young women in distress) change a tire, \*\*[WeirdDave, ExTank and I](http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/th1nksn0w/vwp?.dir=/Spiffle+II&.src=ph&.dnm=Good+Samaritans.JPG&.view=t) \*\*are guilty of that, I suppose (at Spiffled II on our way to a gun range, no less.) In this case, their spare was flat, so even had they known how to change a shredded tire, they were SOL (and they didn’t know how, BTW.) > > [Say Anything, Diane Court] > I just want someone to be decent. > Can’t you just be a little decent? > [/SA, DC] ---
**Author:** ![Qis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Qis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qis)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280/40 "2001-11-09T16:12:02Z")
only tried it a few times, but i do something wrong that ameks it impossible for her to get into her jacket without squirming. so i gave up. I find introducing myself to girls quite hard on account of the handshaking thing. Not supposed to shake their hands, only a guy thing. yea. but i find it artificial just to say, Hi’ I’m Chris, adn then just sit back. I also like how handshakes work for introducing yourself. “Hi’ i’m Chris”\* reaches out hand \*_\< gets response like " Dave"\>_ all’re happy. i find it suspicious if a guy wont shake my hand. - lost the plot [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-women-still-appreciate-gentlemans-etiquette/92280.md?page=3)