# Do you believe a post-op transexual is the original or assigned gender? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 27, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-a-post-op-transexual-is-the-original-or-assigned-gender/626483 "2012-06-27T17:12:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-a-post-op-transexual-is-the-original-or-assigned-gender/626483/21 "2012-06-27T22:46:31Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > This thread seems to be disturbing **Johanna**. That’s not what it’s meant for, and I don’t like to hurt people, so I’m going to ask a mod to close it. But before I do I will publicly apologize to her. Accepted from me, anyway. I have been through a week with two “tranny” uses in the _NY Times_, a “sex change” joke on _The Today Show_ (which got much hilarious laughter from the crew) and two threads about “is Eve a man in a dress, and should he/she warn potential boyfriends that he/she is a disgusting freak?” I can’t speak for Johanna, but I am just goddam exhausted. ---
**Author:** ![Electric\_Warrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Electric\_Warrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electric_Warrior)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-a-post-op-transexual-is-the-original-or-assigned-gender/626483/22 "2012-06-27T22:54:01Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I disagree with the term “original gender”. Fer example, Rachel Pollack was born a woman. She has XY chromosomes and had a penis and testes, but was still a woman. In her view (and mine) the surgery was corrective surgery. The legal change from M to F was not due to the surgery and hormonal therapy. It was a recognition of an error that had been made. Something about the wording of the question was throwing me off and - this is exactly it. I can’t guarantee to speak for the transgender community, but I have friends who are transgender and this is exactly how they feel. Their ‘original gender’ is the one they feel like inside. EDIT @ **Skald** : **There is no such thing as a ‘biological gender’.** There’s ‘biological sex’ but even that is a fairly loose and not all-encompassing dichotomy. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-a-post-op-transexual-is-the-original-or-assigned-gender/626483/23 "2012-06-28T00:37:20Z")
I read Option 6 as “Don’t know and don’t care.” You want to dress like a boy or a girl? Fine. You went to the time, trouble, discomfort, and expense to make the change? If you’re that serious then absolutely, you are what you say. **Johanna** is transgendered? In twelve years here I didn’t know it nor did I give it a moment’s thought. She just seems like nice people, usually. 😉 I am slightly curious about the mechanisms of post-coital hygiene, as M-F transgenders lack certain cleaning systems, but not enough to ask or read any reply. Which may say the most about my dedication to not knowing or caring because I cover my eyes and ears and sing “LALALALA!” whenever anybody wants to discuss other aspects of feminine hygiene. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-a-post-op-transexual-is-the-original-or-assigned-gender/626483/24 "2012-06-28T00:41:35Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > The poll is inherently flawed because it doesn’t distinguish between sex (the biological aspect) and gender (the social aspect). It wouldn’t be a Skald poll if it weren’t inherently flawed. Its part of his charm. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-a-post-op-transexual-is-the-original-or-assigned-gender/626483/25 "2012-06-28T04:12:32Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I want to give the second answer, but I can’t. Except in very rare circumstances, you were still entirely socialized as your physical gender. While you may be happier as your preferred gender, being socialized as the other gender is not going to not affect you. > > Plus, gender is a social construct, and there are a lot of people that, even without what I said above, do not want to date with a transgendered person. So they are obviously treating them as another gender. Oddly, I wanted to give the first answer but can’t. I would have said that I wouldn’t be able to think of someone as a different gender…but when it happened in the real world it turned out I had no problem thinking of her as her after the transformation. ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-a-post-op-transexual-is-the-original-or-assigned-gender/626483/26 "2012-06-28T04:32:13Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Last time I checked, the brain of Homo Sapiens Sapiens was sexually dimorphic- > > [http://www.gires.org.uk/Text\_Assets/maletofemale.pdf](http://www.gires.org.uk/Text_Assets/maletofemale.pdf) > As there is currently no way to get a decent look at the stria terminalis except for autopsy, I’m willing to take a person’s word on what sex brain they have. Thanks for posting that again, **Doc.** Really, I object to the word “assigned.” No one’s assigning them their gender. They KNOW it. And seriously, is it any skin off your nose to refer to someone who has a really shitty medical condition in a way which does NOT add to the general shittiness of dealing with life in our society heaps on them? I have a friend who is asexual in gender (though not in sexual preference.) Zhe does not identify as either gender, and does zer best to dress and act in gender-neutral ways, because **both** genders are uncomfortable and do not “fit.” Zhe prefers to be referred to as zhe/zer rather than “they” or “it,” as zhe is neither plural nor neutered. It is no skin off my nose to refer to zer in the way zhe prefers. None. And it helps make zer life a little less shitty, because I am not one of the people who insists on jamming zer into a box which does not fit. Why is that such a pain for people? ---
**Author:** ![aerodave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f08c70/32.png) [@aerodave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aerodave)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-a-post-op-transexual-is-the-original-or-assigned-gender/626483/27 "2012-06-28T04:46:52Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > legally established under the laws of my state Virginia I think appealing to the authority of state law is the last thing anyone wants to do to deterimine what’s “right”. These are the same state laws that, in a majority of places, prohibit men from marrying men and women from marrying women. I think whether a government entity recognizes your gender is irrelevant with respect to what you “really are”. In might make a difference when it comes to getting the rest of society to treat you as you expect to be treated, and that is no doubt meaningful and important. But laws don’t make or change the truth. It’s a bonus if the legal reality matches your personal reality, but the former does not create the latter. ---
**Author:** ![BowlOfDucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2bfe46/32.png) [@BowlOfDucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BowlOfDucks)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-a-post-op-transexual-is-the-original-or-assigned-gender/626483/28 "2012-06-28T05:07:08Z")
This question is extremely ambiguous. A woman is born a woman, a man is born a man. But their physical gender they were born to might not match their actual gender. So saying “I believe a post-op trans-sexual is still truly his or her original gender.”, yes they are their original gender, because their body had nothing to do with their gender. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-a-post-op-transexual-is-the-original-or-assigned-gender/626483/29 "2012-06-28T06:31:53Z")
Other: I believe people retain the exclusive right to define themselves in the way that makes them happiest. I don’t believe it’s necessary for a transwoman to get her penis surgically altered into a vagina before she can call herself a woman (and be called a woman by other people). If a transwoman has a prominent adam’s apple and a bulge in her leotard, I have no problem calling her “she” if that’s what she wants me to do. In the same vein, I think it’s okay for a furry to define themselves as a catperson, even though they don’t literally have whiskers and a tail and pointy ears. What skin is it off my nose? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-a-post-op-transexual-is-the-original-or-assigned-gender/626483/30 "2012-06-28T06:43:17Z")
The only item for which they are not the reassigned sex is for baby-making purposes, but, how to put this… it’s basically a form of infertility that you happen to know about before even trying to make a baby. I consider them to be their mental sex before the physical sex gets reassigned, too. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-a-post-op-transexual-is-the-original-or-assigned-gender/626483/31 "2012-06-28T06:57:39Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > I don’t care. If you’re a transexual, pre _or_ post op, I’ll refer to you in whichever way you wish. If I’m unsure which you prefer, I’ll ask. True. The whole pre-op/post-op thing is completely irrelevant. No amount of surgery can make you male or female; all it can do is make you look like who you already are. (Well, technically, if your appearance already matches who you are, I suppose surgery could make you look otherwise, but _no one_ would sign up for that!) Once more for emphasis: SURGERY DOESN’T MATTER. I want to shout that because the (frankly rather obvious) fact that surgery can’t MAKE you a man or woman was an obstacle for me to accepting transgendered folk. Once I thought about, though, it became nearly as obvious that that isn’t the point anyway. No one gets gender reassignment surgery because they _want_ to be a woman, but because they believe\* they ARE a woman and want to look and function like most women do. Anyone who thinks sex organs or chromosomes are what make you a particular gender is simply ignorant. Even from a purely physical/biological/anatomical perspective, the science is MUCH more complicated than that, and the evidence that both sex and gender occur on a continuum is simply overwhelming and obvious. As for what it all means to ME for MY gender and/or sex, only I can possibly know and only damn fool would take anyone’s word for it over mine. * * * \*“Believe” is not meant disparagingly. Sometimes someone who identifies as a particular gender will change their mind. Occasionally, someone will undergo gender reassignment surgery and then decide to identify differently from the surgically “assigned” gender. This isn’t surprising to me. Gender and personal identity are both _extremely complicated_, and there is no reason to think that brains fit a neat dichotomous model any more than bodies do. ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-a-post-op-transexual-is-the-original-or-assigned-gender/626483/32 "2012-06-28T07:44:37Z")
I had to go with option #3. As has been stated before, the surgery isn’t relevant. A MtF woman, for example, is a woman even if she’s never even taken hormone therapy. Therapy and surgery are ways to make your physical sex correctly match your gender, that’s all. Surgery in particular has this mythology of being a sudden switch. A man goes to the doctor, gets a surgery, presto now they’re a woman. It doesn’t work like that. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-a-post-op-transexual-is-the-original-or-assigned-gender/626483/33 "2012-06-28T08:35:21Z")
I monitor the Wikipedia page on musician Wendy Carlos. The work is mainly reverting edits by people who change all the female pronouns to male ones, as if they don’t believe that Wendy is a woman. Wendy herself gets very annoyed at people even bringing the subject up. I’ve of two minds though. On the one hand, it’s her life and her business. On the other hand, she is a famous person and an encyclopedia cannot ignore an important fact like Wendy first gaining worldwide fame under the name Walter. ---
**Author:** ![listedmia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@listedmia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/listedmia)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-a-post-op-transexual-is-the-original-or-assigned-gender/626483/34 "2012-06-28T10:05:12Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > Really, I object to the word “assigned.” No one’s assigning them their gender. They KNOW it. This. A lot of people would refer to the gender corresponding to one’s physical sex as “The gender you were assigned at birth” so the question was a little confusing to me. I still have a hard time wrapping my head around things like “zhe”, but in general, I refer to transgender people by whatever pronoun they desire. This got weird when a MtF acquaintance of mine, “Bree”, got a new job and decided it would be easier working as “Brian”. She had not had surgery yet and was legally still a man on most official documents. She “went back to being a dude” for about a month and it was really, really strange. Her posture, affectations and voice were so obviously feminine that I really could not think of her as a male. She went from being a gorgeous, confident supermodel type lady to a rather dweeby ultra-effeminate gay man. Said she was relieved after she lost the job and started dressing like a girl again. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-a-post-op-transexual-is-the-original-or-assigned-gender/626483/35 "2012-06-28T10:51:50Z")
There is another current thread on transsexual identity [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15216184&posted=1#post15216184), so I am closing this one at the request of the OP. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-a-post-op-transexual-is-the-original-or-assigned-gender/626483.md?page=1)