Do you believe in a soul?

No, there’s not ( IMHO ). When one looks closely at consciouness, one starts finding time delays, such as the famous one where the decision to act can be detected neurologically shortly before the person becomes aware of it. Now, some people use this to “disprove” consciousness, which I don’t buy; we have consciousness, so we know it exists. We may be wrong about what it is, but it’s there.

IMHO, the best explanation I’ve heard ( from Daniel Dennett, I think ), is that consciousness is due to various distributed systems in the brain, not a central “eye” that watches the rest of the brain. As the theory goes, if you look closely enough in space or time, you won’t see consciousness ( or it’s underlying mechanism ), because the scale is too small; you’ll be looking at a fragment. In other words, it explains such time-delay effects by saying that due to the brain’s processing speed limitations and lack of central synchronization, a small enough time-slice will produce the appearance of disjointedness, that the non-conscious subsystem is acting on it’s own. ( I know I’m not explaining this as well as he did; sorry )

An analogy is a living cell; a single protein molecule doesn’t look alive, nor does an organelle watched for a short enough time look like part of an integrated system; you only get life when it’s components interact over time. There is no “life-center” or vital essence in a cell, just as there is no center of consciousness or soul in a mind.

So, no “center”; it contradicts the facts, leads to logical problems ( what’s watching the “center” ? ), and there are alternate explanations anyway.

Structure. Pattern. What’s the difference between a computer and a pile of mineral dust ?

Finally, souls don’t explain anything about consciousness; they’re what Dennet calls a “skyhook”; you aren’t supposed to ask what holds up a skyhook. What makes a soul conscious, if we have one ?

A lot of researchers into human development might disagree with you.

A human is not born with a fully developed brain. A baby is born with the basic “wiring” intact, meaning that the brain knows how to make the body breathe, swallow, eliminate and cry. As the brain develops, more neurons grow and more elaborate connections between them are made allowing for more complex thinking.

When a baby looks into a mirror, it does not recognize itself. It thinks it’s looking at another baby and will attempt to interract with it. Some babies develop more quickly than others, but it’s usually around the age of three that the baby starts to recognize its own reflection and to understand the concept of “self.” (Which is one reason why toddlers often refer to themselves in third-person.) They also begin to understand the concepts of permenence. (That an object they cannot see still exists.) At this point, they begin to recognize the world around them instead of being fully engrossed by their own needs.

This process continues as the child grows. We begin to learn empathy, social rules, cause-and-effect, and impulse control. This process is not fully complete until a human reaches about the age of twenty five.

If you’re arguing “conciousness” from a standpoint of philosophy, I cannot respond. I’m too impatient with it-- my mind simply doesn’t work that way. All I can give you is the scientific facts which have been gathered by researchers into child development and human sociology for decades.

Hee hee! If there are no souls, then I really got one over on Satan!

Seriously, when I was a Christian I had trouble with the idea of a soul except as Chrisk and Anaamika describe it–a conceptual term for an emergent property of bodies. The idea of a non-physical “thing” that can be separated from a body always struck me as a rather awkward importation from Greek philosophy. I can’t think of anything in the Bible that indicates that “souls” can exist outside of a body. The New Testament envisions a resurrection, not a bunch of disembodied souls floating in heaven.

That was supposed to say, “Seriously, even when I was a Christian…”

:wink:

No I do not believe in souls, but I fervently respect others’ right to. Dad died last October 15th of a titanic brain hemmorhage. Still breathing with aid of a vent, there he lay. I sat with him, holding his hand and crying and trying to figure out what one does in that situation.

Dad was gone. No spirit hovering overhead watching me. The organic and chemical devices that worked their magic inside of his skull were wrecked and the man was gone. The machine survived - luckily, since we’re all big Organ Donors in our family.

Mom said she felt him nearby for months, now not so much so. I believe she believes, and so her feelings cannot be invalidated by my lack of belief.

There is no soul. There is the impact we make on the lives of others right up to the moment we die. Look at Dad- he was declared dead at 5:37pm that day, but his still living machine of a body did beautiful things to extend the lives of organ recipients in two different situations. He had impact post mortem.

Until such time as I am convinced a soul exists, the answer for me has to be no.

Cartooniverse

Exactly so. And when we humans “break down” and stop running, our component parts begin to deteriorate almost immediately, leaving a very short window to re-start us before we are irreparable.

Except that a car takes longer to deteriorate to the point it can’t be restarted, it seems to me the process is about the same. My body is a running machine operated by the biochemical computer that is my brain.

What “started” me? The electro-chemical process that commenced when sperm met egg, I suppose.

Even assuming that these things are signs of consciousness , and further assuming that consciousness has anything to do with a soul, your numbers are way off. Most babies develop object permanence around 8 months of age, and they recognize themselves in a mirror between 6 and 18 months. By 17 months, they will recognize themselves in a photo.

I don’t beleive we have a soul. We have self awarness which probably lead to the idea of the soul.

It is easy though to see why so many folks would like think we have them.

Taken literally, no, I don’t believe we have souls. The closest things I believe in are consciousness and personality and persona/anima, which only exist while we’re alive.

But I’ve been know to use “soul” metaphorically, as in “Wonder Bread has no soul.”

I apologize for my incorrect data on the ages. I was going of pure memory, which I regret was faulty.

The reason why I said anything about conciouness was because featherlou asked:

I said that the unique “me” is a product of my socialization and life experience, not a set identity assigned to me. (In other words, I might be an entirely different kind of person if I was raised in another culture.) Then I said that conciousness doesn’t arise at birth, or even more impossibly, at conception, because it’s not reached until a later point in brain development. It may be earlier than I had perviously stated, but I still stand behind those assertions.

I like this idea. :smiley:

I believe in something of the individual spirit that endures. But ultimately, we will find that those individual spirits are all part of one whole – everything is. The whole endures forever in perfection and bliss.

Maybe we will go through stages of awareness. If we reach a stage of non-awareness, we will be glad for it and welcome it and just be.

By the way, of all non human or animal things, I think that trees must have very strong spirits. I miss certain trees I’ve known in my life as surely as I miss absent friends.

For a meaningful debate the ground has to be clearly laid out. QUESTION: What IS a soul?

All living creature have a/the life principle, i.e. they are alive. Therefore they have a soul per the first primary definition in the OLDictionary.
The psyche or immaterial (mentality?) existing within a living person is usually consider as the undying spirit that leaves the body at death and enters the unseen spirit world.

I think when people talk about “soul” or sometimes “consciousness,” they are really referring to the phenomenon of the “first person view”-- the feeling that there’s something in us that’s doing the sensing and feeling. Descart, one of the first people to think of the mind as a machine, termed this “phanstasms.” He accepted that the mind worked by “motions,” yet he could not come to terms that moving particles could actually experience or feel anything. Instead, he proposed that phantasms existed alongside them and were the observers. Earlier in my philosophical life, I had in parallel come to a very similar conclusion. I believed in the concept of the “observescence,” which acted in many ways as what people would commonly understand as the soul or sometimes refer to as consciousness. This observescence would not partake in will (i do believe our minds are deterministic) and simply sit along side it, undetectable as cosciousness must be. Ie, it is the old truism that an AI can profess all it wants that it is conscious, yet you’ll never have one shred of evidence to believe.

Yet a year or two ago I realized the lethal fault of such a line of thought. I kept talking about this inner thing in me that feels, this consciousness that observes, and of course how the only one who could have direct observation of it be me. I knew that i was conscious, after all. I didn’t have to prove it to anyone. They could just take it on faith.

Yet… if this consciousness cannot be observed by any material means… and if the thinking in my mind is material… well, then I can have absolutely no evidence that i was conscious better than could anyone else.

Indeed, if we define consciousness as something whose presence we cannot determine in a machine… we can’t determine it in ourselves either.

I don’t know if my words have come out right, but I think that that is an incredibly profound thought, overthrowing nearly everything we knew about ourselves and providing the only window we have on that thing that we thought we could call consciousness. The thing is that examining our minds from the third person, everything makes sense. When i utter the words “I AM CONSCIOUS!,” one may dissect my mind and say, “well, you know, those neurons over there fired that and the body printed out a common message.” It would appear no different than if i were to write a program that put an error message on screen. The same goes for pain, as one may say that the shriveled expression on my face is nothing more than the reflex to some line of signals. I could make a program that winces the computer just as easily. Yet there cannot be anything beyond this. The first person cannot derive from anything different than the third. There cannot be phantasms that do any feeling, no soul that observes. It is motions themselves, by some strange means, that define and feel themselves.

If you make a machine that winces, its pain will be as real (or as non-real) as our own. That is what must be concluded. All other things are immaterial. It is as if consciousness (observescence) and causality itself are two sides of the same damn coin.

Frankly, I do not know too well how to ultimately understand this. You may gather as much from the confusion of my speech. Yet the ultimate truth of consciousness, I believe, is embedded in this line of reasoning.
P.S. and as for free will… it is a silly paradox. An action can only have precisely two sources: a cause or randomness (a lack of cause). Either something happens because of something else, or it happens just for the hell of it. Free will is defined as being rather removed from determinism, yet that means it cannot be anything other than randomness. Yet free will is also taken to be the very antithesis of randomness… so it’s just a paradox. However, generally our decisions have very clear causes anyway. As I like to say, we are free to do whatever we want, but we are not free in what we want. Just imagine if we had that power. And even if we were free to make ourselves want whatever we wanted… you can see how it all reduces to absurdity. Sorry, free will can’t exist. (Also, I must clarify that colloquially we often say we “want to exercise”, when in fact we actually don’t. If we really wanted to, we’d be doing it. What we mean is “we want to want to exercise.” Ha, that’s some free will right there.)

I think that the concept of the soul is just a narcotizing fiction. There is no evidence to support its existence and so there’s no reason to believe we possess them, other than to provide a vector by which we may survive death. While it may be nice to believe in a soul, to do so is just wishful thinking.

I don’t think so. I have never seen any evidence suggesting that they exist, and the idea (as I’ve heard it variously defined by others) seems unnecessary to me.

I miss the Martian invasion cards my mother threw out. I think this speaks more of you than the trees.

Animals are aware of external reality. My dog knows exactly what little movements I make that are prepartory to a walk. What is missing is consciousness of self. I read somewhere that one definition of consciousness is awareness of our own thoughts, and the ability to judge our thoughts, remember them and build on them. That kind of feedback is crucial to our intelligence. Newborn babies don’t have this - they react to stimuli, but they aren’t self aware. Anyone with kids knows you can’t tell the moment it happens - sometime in the first few years they become a person, with a personality.

That’s about it.

Most folks have no trouble grasping that they did not exist before they were born. They have more trouble accepting that they also will not exist after they die.

One thing occurs to me; many people here have basically stated “it’s not a soul, it’s just consciousness/self-awareness,” and I’m sort of thinking, “Holy crap, we’re CONSCIOUS!” A bunch of cells pile up on themselves and do biochemical things until they become conscious and self-aware; if that isn’t one of the most incredible things you’ve ever heard of, I don’t know what is.