Do you believe in ghosts and the paranormal?

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
241

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Ah, one of the standard lines used to handwave aside criticisms of nonsense like ghosts, psychic powers, and God. The people who want evidence of something that so totally contradicts what we know of the world are all bad people. They can’t possibly be dismissive because it’s an idea that’s logically inconsistant or violates known physical laws - they are True Believers in anti-ghostism or whatever who will deny any and all evidence. Instead of being skeptics who are dismissive of such beliefs because there’s never been any evidence for them to reject.

This is simply another example of a “jealous phenomenon”; something that convieniently only appears in front of people who already believe in it. And as such things always are, it’s garbage - real oddball events don’t carefully avoid skeptics and chase people who are believers.
[/QUOTE]
Piffle.

You are not even responding to what I posted. My point was that those who are demanding some sort of proof on this message board are never going to be satisfied with evidence posted to this message board. I have not interfered in any questions or alternative theories (including insanity) directed toward meenie7, only asking, at one point, that the discussion not take a personal turn.

You appear to be so determined to make “your side” of the “argument” that you are responding with a rote text based on a few key word triggers, not on the actual posts as submitted.

I do not find meenie7’s anecdotes credible, but I see no reason to step outside normal civility to attack personal reminiscences that originated in IMHO, just because they were tossed over the wall to GD. Had meenie7 opened a GD thread announcing that skeptics were fools because she had proof that ghosts wander among us, I would have moved the barrier for personal challenges back a bit, but that is not how this thread has played.

242

Bullshit. This thread has been in GD for a couple days and she is STILL getting the same pass from you as if it were still in IMHO. If she can’t take the heat of the forum she should bow out. We are not here to patronize her. This isn’t MPSIMS.

243

meenie7 - do you find this has adverse effects on your life? For example, you mentioned you believe others can feel though not hear your friend. I would see how that might impact the possibilities of developing a, shall we say, romantic attachment to a living person.

244

The existence of Marcus is a claim so extraordinary that (meaning no offense) I’d really have to know Meenie better before I could take at face value that she believes it, and then I’d have to go from there. I will say however that this thread makes me regret some of the probably gratuitous cracks I’ve made about the beliefs (at least the experience based beliefs) of others. The skepticism/doubt of some people as to the existence of the “paranormal” based on the facts that 1- they haven’t personally experienced it 2- it doesn’t fit the laws of Physics or observed data is something I find logical, understandable, even admirable to some extent, but the absolutely refusal to even consider it is POSSIBLE
that people aren’t just imagining things (or there wasn’t some other obvious explanation they just were too daft or gullible or daft to comprehend) is galling.
While skepticism is essential for true knowledge to advance, so is the ability to admit what you know is not all there is and may not even be right.

The Ptolemaic system explained every observable phenomena of the heavens for more than a millennium and you could predict eclipses by it. During the American Civil War most physicians, highly trained and intelligent and well educated, believed in the miasma theory of disease; some actually scoffed at the theory of germs in scholarly papers until after Pasteur. Walk outside at night and you’ll see the light from stars that may not even exist anymore, or events (that particular light) that is at very least several years old and in some cases an event that predates the existence of humans. Such a basic and commonplace thing as human conception only began to be understand after the microscope (and then had some whopping errors) and what every school child knows today about sperm and egg were only known after the late Victorian era.
The Lemba of South Africa (and Zimbabwe) were considered quaint and silly by many for stating, even though they’re black and culturally resemble their neighbors, that they descend from Israelites. Obviously, this was something worked into their mythology after encountering missionaries. Odd, though, that their DNA also adapted to the mythology and is semitic in origin (same patrilineal markers as are found in the Kohanim even). String theory is not falsifiable at all and suggests taht there are many dimensions of the universe and all time is happening at once, and yet it’s respected as a theory.
Point of the above isn’t that all old wives tales are true (the majority are probably wrong) or that science has had some whopping errors and thus isn’t valid (those errors in fact are what keep it valid) or that ‘quantum theory is loopy and some brilliant people hold it as true thus ghosts which are also loopy must be true’, but that

-our knowledge of the physical world is incomplete (and things we have only learned to be true about in the past century indicate its strangeness)
-anecdotal evidence can sometimes be confirmed by later technologies
-the most brilliant people alive using the best information and the best logic can be dead wrong
-other things, but you get the point and I’m making no converts so

if you don’t want to believe in ghosts that’s fine. I understand your reasons and admit I probably wouldn’t believe in them myself if I hadn’t had odd experiences. I don’t believe in reincarnation, crystal power, psychics, or the supernatural teachings of most organized religions for example,

However, I would never flat out state that “there is no such thing as a psychic or as reincarnation, there is no such thing as a divine being or angels, and anybody who believes there is can only be called an idiot”. I don’t know for certain and neither do you. There’s a difference in keeping your bullshit detector on standby and just saying “bullshit” to anything that’s not 100% proven.

Not said well, I’m afraid, but the concise version is “Until claims of the paranormal are absolutely disproven I don’t know and neither do you”.

245

[QUOTE=dropzone]
Bullshit. This thread has been in GD for a couple days and she is STILL getting the same pass from you as if it were still in IMHO. If she can’t take the heat of the forum she should bow out. We are not here to patronize her. This isn’t MPSIMS.
[/QUOTE]
Why would you call it bullshit and then repeat back to me excactly what I have already posted?

I have already noted, explicitly, that I am treating this more as an IMHO thread as long as she is not making any assertions beyond recounting her claimed experiences. I don’t think this thread actually had to be moved to GD and I see no reason to treat her posts (or those of Sampiro) as anything more than personal recollections. (If you want to hammer on a poster who is asserting the generalized reality of ghosts, go ahead. If you wish to express skepticism regarding meenie7’s anecdotes, go ahead–just don’t make it personal.) I do not get a liar/troll vibe from her posts at this point and I see no reason to get all upset about her presence on the board or in this (basically anecdotal) thread.

246

On second thought, since its mere presence in GD appears to upset several of you, I will move the thread to MPSIMS and everyone who wishes to come back and attack or defend the reality of ghosts may open a new thread, here.

[ /Modding ]

247

maybe I am curious about the ‘unexplained’ because I watched too much sci-fi growin up? I dont know.
What I do know, as a former member of a ‘ghost hunters’ group is that there were occassionally things that could not be debunked. EVP recordings - especially interactive ones. Bad tape? maybe, but what about tapeless recordings - are we going to pass that off as a technical glitch?
I dont know, and because of my curiousity I keep searching for answers. I want to believe in the paranormal - but I am often disappointed because, ime, the closest I’ve gotten is “I don’t have a logical explaination”. And that rarely happens.

248

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Piffle…

…My point was that those who are demanding some sort of proof on this message board are never going to be satisfied with evidence posted to this message board.
[/QUOTE]

Piffle yourself. Nobody is asking her to prove it ON the message board. All of the requests and ideas are to test in the ‘real world’. The idea is to get her to examine her beliefs in an objective way.

249

[QUOTE=Pixilated]
maybe I am curious about the ‘unexplained’ because I watched too much sci-fi growin up? I dont know.
What I do know, as a former member of a ‘ghost hunters’ group is that there were occassionally things that could not be debunked. EVP recordings - especially interactive ones. Bad tape? maybe, but what about tapeless recordings - are we going to pass that off as a technical glitch?
I dont know, and because of my curiousity I keep searching for answers. I want to believe in the paranormal - but I am often disappointed because, ime, the closest I’ve gotten is “I don’t have a logical explaination”. And that rarely happens.
[/QUOTE]

Have you ever taken an EVP recording, and given it to ten people and asked them to write down what they hear, without any prompting about what you think it is?

I’d be curious to see what the result would be.

250

[QUOTE=Pixilated]
Bad tape? maybe, but what about tapeless recordings - are we going to pass that off as a technical glitch?
[/QUOTE]
No, that would be an artifact of digital compression.

In other words, it’s not a glitch if it can be predicted based on the technology; then it’s a feature. :smiley:

Thank you, Tom, for moving this to a more appropriate forum. I could’ve done without the, “its mere presence in GD appears to upset several of you,” since the “upset” was caused by its completely inappropriate presence in Great Debates, but I’ll bow out of the thread now that it’s in the land of butterflies and rainbows.

251

I don’t know how a person can’t believe in ghosts. There are too many people with too many first hand accounts for there not to be. Surly all these thousands of people aren’t lying or hallucinating.

My dad is a very sane, no nonsense type of guy and he told me a story of a house he lived in where ice cold hands would touch you in the middle of the night, footsteps upstairs when everyone was downstairs, doors closing, dishes flying across the room for no reason or explanation. He even had the cops out a few times because there was so much ruckus going on upstairs, only to find nobody there.

When I watch “A Haunting” on Discovery channel, I can tell these people are NOT lying or delusional. These people actually experienced something that scared the shit out of them, scared them so bad that they would throw away thousands of dollars they paid for a house just to get the hell out of there.

Nah, they exist. And for those who don’t think so, open your mind a little. What’s funny is more scientists believe in black holes than ghosts or aliens, yet there is not one single picture of a black hole. How many ghost pictures are there? Thousands. You say there is more evidence for black holes? I don’t think so, go spend a few nights in the house that was featured in “A Haunting in Connecticut” then get back to me.

252

[QUOTE=villa]
meenie7 - do you find this has adverse effects on your life? For example, you mentioned you believe others can feel though not hear your friend. I would see how that might impact the possibilities of developing a, shall we say, romantic attachment to a living person.
[/QUOTE]

No, it doesn’t interrupt that. :slight_smile: Until recently, I was actually engaged (unfortunately, she broke it off for reasons she would not explain) to a woman who did not even know Marcus existed. He respects my privacy when I have dates or intimate moments with others, though, of course, as my friend, we talk about my relationships when I’m not actually on a date or something. The only exception to this is when my best friend is around, because he’s interested in Marcus so Marcus will hang out with us sometimes when asked.

253

[QUOTE=diggleblop]
I don’t know how a person can’t believe in ghosts. There are too many people with too many first hand accounts for there not to be. Surly all these thousands of people aren’t lying or hallucinating.

[/QUOTE]

I don’t believe things because thousands of people tell me to do so. That would be silly, and it would also mean that I would have to believe in all of the major religions. Or do I pick one by popularity rule? Lessee, lots and lots of Hindus, over a billion, do I believe in it just because lots of people believe in it?

I’m sorry, but this is one of the silliest reasons ever to believe in something.

254

[QUOTE=meenie7]
No, it doesn’t interrupt that. :slight_smile: Until recently, I was actually engaged (unfortunately, she broke it off for reasons she would not explain) to a woman who did not even know Marcus existed. He respects my privacy when I have dates or intimate moments with others, though, of course, as my friend, we talk about my relationships when I’m not actually on a date or something. The only exception to this is when my best friend is around, because he’s interested in Marcus so Marcus will hang out with us sometimes when asked.
[/QUOTE]

Only reason I ask is that I was wondering if this was stopping you entering into ‘normal’ relationships at all. Given that it isn’t, I don’t see any major harm to you of it, and it certainly seems like you believe this.

255

[QUOTE=meenie7]
The only exception to this is when my best friend is around, because he’s interested in Marcus so Marcus will hang out with us sometimes when asked.
[/QUOTE]

Given how he died, I sincerely hope you don’t use the term “hang out” to him. :wink:

256

[QUOTE=diggleblop]
I don’t know how a person can’t believe in ghosts. There are too many people with too many first hand accounts for there not to be. Surly all these thousands of people aren’t lying or hallucinating. [\quote]

False dichotomy - they can also be mistaken, or someone may be hoaxing them. Just because you or the person experiencing can’t explain it, doesn’t make it a ghost. Also argument from popularity. Lots of people thinking something does not make it true.

[QUOTE=diggleblop]
My dad is a very sane, no nonsense type of guy and he told me a story of a house he lived in where ice cold hands would touch you in the middle of the night, footsteps upstairs when everyone was downstairs, doors closing, dishes flying across the room for no reason or explanation. He even had the cops out a few times because there was so much ruckus going on upstairs, only to find nobody there. [\quote]

Lots of these stories happen ‘in the middle of the night’ where the brain sometimes has a hard time discernign between dream and reality. I jumped out of bed the other night because I was utterly convinced that a spider the size of a garbage can lid was coming down from the ceiling. It was a waking dream - google it, interesting stuff.

[QUOTE=diggleblop]
When I watch “A Haunting” on Discovery channel, I can tell these people are NOT lying or delusional. These people actually experienced something that scared the shit out of them, scared them so bad that they would throw away thousands of dollars they paid for a house just to get the hell out of there. [\quote]

These are entertainment shows. They are designed to scare you.

[QUOTE=diggleblop]
Nah, they exist. And for those who don’t think so, open your mind a little. What’s funny is more scientists believe in black holes than ghosts or aliens, yet there is not one single picture of a black hole. How many ghost pictures are there? Thousands. You say there is more evidence for black holes? I don’t think so, go spend a few nights in the house that was featured in “A Haunting in Connecticut” then get back to me.
[/QUOTE]

Is your mind open to the possibility that they don’t exist? Do you really think there is better evidence for ghosts than for black holes because there are ‘ghost’ pictures but no pictures of black holes? I really hope you are joking here.

And I’d be happy to stay in any haunted place - wouldn’t bother or scare me in the least. In fact, I just spent the night in a 100+ year old tavern that used to be part of the underground railroad in NE Ohio. The owner’s wife (a friend) is convinced a ghost named Adam is in there and hurting business (I say it is their crummy service). I stayed on a dare - in the basement. Nothing.

Do you have a link to the Haunting in Connecticut place you refer to - you have piqued my curiosity.

257

[QUOTE=Sampiro]
Given how he died, I sincerely hope you don’t use the term “hang out” to him. :wink:
[/QUOTE]

Ha! He didn’t hang himself, though. He shot himself.

258

[QUOTE=diggleblop]
I don’t know how a person can’t believe in ghosts. There are too many people with too many first hand accounts for there not to be. Surly all these thousands of people aren’t lying or hallucinating.
[/quote]

False dichotomy - they can also be mistaken, or someone may be hoaxing them. Just because you or the person experiencing can’t explain it, doesn’t make it a ghost. Also argument from popularity. Lots of people thinking something does not make it true.

[QUOTE=diggleblop]
My dad is a very sane, no nonsense type of guy and he told me a story of a house he lived in where ice cold hands would touch you in the middle of the night, footsteps upstairs when everyone was downstairs, doors closing, dishes flying across the room for no reason or explanation. He even had the cops out a few times because there was so much ruckus going on upstairs, only to find nobody there.
[/quote]

Lots of these stories happen ‘in the middle of the night’ where the brain sometimes has a hard time discernign between dream and reality. I jumped out of bed the other night because I was utterly convinced that a spider the size of a garbage can lid was coming down from the ceiling. It was a waking dream - google it, interesting stuff.

[QUOTE=diggleblop]
When I watch “A Haunting” on Discovery channel, I can tell these people are NOT lying or delusional. These people actually experienced something that scared the shit out of them, scared them so bad that they would throw away thousands of dollars they paid for a house just to get the hell out of there.
[/quote]

These are entertainment shows. They are designed to scare you.
Sorry about the double post.

259

Meenie, you’ve indicated a couple of times that you’ve had friends (and now a fiancee) who have deserted you for “no apparent reason”. I want to believe that, but I have a feeling there’s more to it than that. You certainly don’t have to answer this question, but you might want to think about it: do you have a tendency to…perhaps conflate reality and imagination, for lack of a less-blunt phrasing? Have you made other claims that are very much unverifiable by the world at large? I just have a feeling that there’s more to it than you’re letting on, and it might be connected to your somewhat unconventional and (in a way) irrational beliefs. I don’t want to attack you; I don’t think that’s helpful or called for. I’m concerned. That’s all I have to say on that aspect of this subject. If you need somebody non-judgmental and concerned about you to talk to, feel free to PM me. I’ll be your invisible (via the magic of the internet!) friend any time you like. :slight_smile:

I don't necessarily believe in the paranormal, but I don't necessarily *not*.  I've only really had one or two inexplicable experiences.  When I was a kid, I thought I saw old-timey people a few times outside.  Back in the 1800s, our house didn't exist, and the front yard was a road, so if there were to be some apparitions about, they were in the right place wearing the right clothes.  Who knows?

The scariest experience was once when I turned out the lights in my bedroom to look at my glow-in-the-dark-star handiwork.  As soon as I turned the lights off, someone very clearly grabbed my arm.  I still had my other hand on the light switch, and immediately turned it on.  There was no one there.  Freaked me right out, but I haven't had anything similar happen since, and I stayed in that bedroom for years afterward.  I mean, I left the room, but it was still my bedroom.

I also once had a very good friend die in a car wreck, because she was foolish enough to ride with a very drunken driver (going 120 in a 30 mph windy-ass country road is a bad idea).  I told one of our friends about what had happened, and she said, "Wow, I hope that doesn't happen to me."  That was the last time I saw her.  Two weeks later, her drunken stepfather was driving her home, when he hit a truck head-on.  While turning onto the very road the other girl had died on two weeks prior.
260

[QUOTE=diggleblop]
I don’t know how a person can’t believe in ghosts…Nah, they exist.
[/quote]
Only in your mind, Friend. Only in your mind.