# Do you believe in spiritual experiences? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 26, 2005, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744 "2005-08-26T16:27:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744/161 "2005-09-04T20:45:46Z")
One thing that stands out in studying NDEs is the changed life of the experiencers. Most researchers consider this to be evidence that something real has happened to the individual. No duplication of the NDE has happened in this respect. It would be nice to be able to change people into loving and caring individuals as does the experience. After the writings of Raymond Moody, Jr. we have the surgery of Pam Reynolds, more than an hour brain dead. The surgery was video taped, her body was hooked up to many instruments to measure everything. The documentation has never been questioned, it was very scientific. Yet Pam was able to accurately described the surgery and many other things that happened while she was dead. Yes, it is possible to be dead one moment and brought back to life in the next. [http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html](http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html) This surgery has become the bench mark of NDE evidence of consciousness lives after death of the brain and body. Now, as has been said, you are free to believe anything you want, but that doesn’t detract from the objective evidence of NDEs that they are spiritual. I read the links provided by Jon the Geek, but see nothing in them that discounts real near death experiences. Perhaps people should understand that many concepts of science are theories and not based in fact. Disassociation is theory. Remember, if science doesn’t know what consciousness is or where it comes from or how it works, then we can’t make statements about it like they were facts. I know there are posters here willing to discount every statement said to the favour of real NDEs. But they are not willing to study the material. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744/162 "2005-09-04T21:08:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Wrong. I offered inconclusive but persuasive scientific evidence to counter **lekatt’s** anecdotal and more often than not anonymous stories, puff pieces written by true believers, links to websites full of true believers, news stories about supposedly mysterious events with no follow through, and a tiny handful of scientic links that actually go _against_ his stated position. Now, if **lekatt’s** stated position was that he believed in NDEs dispite scientific evidence to the contrary, there would be no discussion here. What he is doing though is claiming the _scientific_ high ground through the misunderstanding and _deliberate_ misuse of the scientific process. Perhaps you didn’t read the experience by an atheist scientist, so I will repost it. Kinda blows away your true believer to true believer theory of near death experiences. Experiences are anonymous so the experiencer will not have to face ridicule from those of your persuasion. If you want to talk to some personally, I can arrange it, just say the word. [http://www.aleroy.com/board240.htm](http://www.aleroy.com/board240.htm) Yes, I would believe in my experience with or without scientific evidence, but I don’t have to. There is a lot of objective evidence to NDEs. A scientist experiments (gains experience) with something unknown until he finds the answer. Then other scientists receive his experiences and duplicate them. After a while and many duplications the discovery is declared fact. A thousand people die (for one reason of another) and are brought back to life by modern medical techniques. They all tell of seeing a light, feeling great love, being out of their body, and the other elements of a near death experience. The experience totally changes their personality. They become peaceful, caring, and compassionate. Is this not like duplication of the same experience under the same circumstances. There is no reason to doubt the experiences of thousands of people just because they are not scientists, no reason at all. ---
**Author:** ![Jon\_the\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jon\_the\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon_the_Geek)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744/163 "2005-09-04T21:19:17Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > A thousand people die (for one reason of another) and are brought back to life by modern medical techniques. They all tell of seeing a light, feeling great love, being out of their body, and the other elements of a near death experience. The experience totally changes their personality. They become peaceful, caring, and compassionate. Is this not like duplication of the same experience under the same circumstances. There is no reason to doubt the experiences of thousands of people just because they are not scientists, no reason at all. _All_ tell of seeing a light, etc, **lekatt**? The studies I linked said that something like 10% of patients who “die” experience any form of NDE. In this very post, you linked to a NDE description that read: > [@](#): > > I didn’t have a “traditional” NDE. I didn’t walk through a tunnel. I didn’t meet Angels or God or my passed away relatives. But I had this sensation of being part of a Unity, I “dreamt” that someone came and asked me to follow, not by words, but it was clear that I had to come. Or was this link not a “true” NDE? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744/164 "2005-09-04T21:40:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Wrong. I offered inconclusive but persuasive scientific evidence to counter **lekatt’s** anecdotal and more often than not anonymous stories, puff pieces written by true believers, links to websites full of true believers, news stories about supposedly mysterious events with no follow through, and a tiny handful of scientic links that actually go _against_ his stated position. Now, if **lekatt’s** stated position was that he believed in NDEs dispite scientific evidence to the contrary, there would be no discussion here. What he is doing though is claiming the _scientific_ high ground through the misunderstanding and _deliberate_ misuse of the scientific process. What exactly did you think it was persuasive off? Those articles offered little in relation to the spiritual aspect of NDEs. Which scientific links did L **ekatt** provide that went against his position?How was the scientific process misused? Post number is fine. Your response is a confusing mix of science and opinion. You seem to be again saying that your take on the evidence provided is obviously the correct one. The fact that others don’t agree doesn’t make us gullible crackpots. One or two or even a dozen NDE stories isn’t compelling or significant. As I said before. It is the volume and similarities that make it significant. The fact that NDE’s are being studied pretty much verifies that. Some study it to understand brain function and consciousness only. Others are also interested in the spiritual aspects, or even primarily ficused on the spiritual aspect. That’s the area where science has little to offer. So don’t believe. Thats your perogitive. You and others keep coming back to a point where your point seems to be “my opinion is more valid because it’s based on facts and science” Well, it isn’t. Science can’t answer these questions and doesn’t claim to. Your opinion is based on a lack of facts and the absence of real scientific evidence. You’re welcome to it, but that doesn’t make it better. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744/165 "2005-09-04T21:57:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When one True Believer interviews another True Believer, I expect _precisely_ this sort of gushing “interview”. How do you think the interview would have gone if an impartial reporter had done the interview? I quoted Dr. Moody several times in a post to **Lekatt** Those are quotes I find significant. {In case you missed them} Dr. Moody is a very intelligent serious minded researcher not given to flights of fancy and drawing erroneous conclusions. He displays a clear understadning of science method.What I noticed in several questions was the true believer reporter trying to get Dr. Moody to imply some spiritual meaning that he refused to do. I can’t imagine an impartial reporter would have gotten anything else. What probing questions do you think an impartial reporter might have asked? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744/166 "2005-09-04T22:56:28Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Perhaps you didn’t read the experience by an atheist scientist, so I will repost it. > Kinda blows away your true believer to true believer theory of near death experiences. Experiences are anonymous so the experiencer will not have to face ridicule from those of your persuasion. If you want to talk to some personally, I can arrange it, just say the word. > [A Near Death Experience, No. 240.](http://www.aleroy.com/board240.htm) Yes, I read this unvarified, anecdotal and anonymous tale. It is not evidence. I have no desire to have you arrange a meeting with someone who can tell me their tale personally, for it would prove nothing more that people can tell stories verbally as well as they write them down. I simply want a link to a scientific study that supports your position. No more anonymous tales. No more gushing “interviews.” No more puff pieces disguised as news stories written by true believers. No more lists of books designed to look impressive but actually used as a stall tactic. _A link to a scientific study that supports your position._ ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744/167 "2005-09-04T23:49:07Z")
> [@Jon the Geek](#): > > _All_ tell of seeing a light, etc, **lekatt**? The studies I linked said that something like 10% of patients who “die” experience any form of NDE. In this very post, you linked to a NDE description that read: > > Or was this link not a “true” NDE? In his opinion it wasn’t a real NDE, in my opinion it was, because it had the interaction of life or death. He was shown the coffin, and the light of the spirit world through the bottom of it. This was saying “only through the coffin (death) can you enter the spirit world.” The symbolism was strange to him, but not to me. That’s why I believe it was a real experience. Also there is the realness of the experience to him, and it changed him, he is no longer a hard atheist, he questions now. Just my opinion, but it’s all I have. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744/168 "2005-09-04T23:57:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yes, I read this unvarified, anecdotal and anonymous tale. It is not evidence. I have no desire to have you arrange a meeting with someone who can tell me their tale personally, for it would prove nothing more that people can tell stories verbally as well as they write them down. > I simply want a link to a scientific study that supports your position. > No more anonymous tales. > No more gushing “interviews.” > No more puff pieces disguised as news stories written by true believers. > No more lists of books designed to look impressive but actually used as a stall tactic. > _A link to a scientific study that supports your position._ I have furnished you many links that support my position. But you always seem to read them differently. Your belief system is so strong that it filters out anything that opposes it. There has been some interesting research on this, but look it up for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744/169 "2005-09-05T00:00:57Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > You and others keep coming back to a point where your point seems to be “my opinion is more valid because it’s based on facts and science” Well, it isn’t. Science can’t answer these questions and doesn’t claim to. Your opinion is based on a lack of facts and the absence of real scientific evidence. You’re welcome to it, but that doesn’t make it better. Haven’t you heard of Occam’s Razor, aka The Principle of Parsimony ? “One should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything.” If there is no factual reason to believe in God, psychic powers, the soul, or the “mystical” aspects of NDE, then you should not. Before science can “answer these questions”, someone needs to demonstrate that there is a meaningful and necessary question to be asked. And by “necessary”, I mean that you must show that something exists that is not already easily explained. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744/170 "2005-09-05T00:03:48Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > But you always seem to read them differently. Your belief system is so strong that it filters out anything that opposes it. :rolleyes: 😃 Coming from you, in a thread like this, that’s one of the funniest things I’ve read for some time. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744/171 "2005-09-05T00:06:13Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I have furnished you many links that support my position. > But you always seem to read them differently. Your belief system is so strong that it filters out anything that opposes it. There has been some interesting research on this, but look it up for yourself. Yeah, you’ve posted _tons_ of links that support your position. Unfortunately, most of them are useless links to your own site, and not one of them was a scientific study. So you can link to sites that show that you support your own position. I would be shocked if anyone else in the world tried something this transparent. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744/172 "2005-09-05T01:05:06Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Haven’t you heard of Occam’s Razor, aka The Principle of Parsimony ? “One should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything.” > > If there is no factual reason to believe in God, psychic powers, the soul, or the “mystical” aspects of NDE, then you should not That last sentance is a horrible distortion of OR if it’s related at all. Incidently, OC does not apply to spirituality and William of Ockham was a monk who did believe in God. > [@](#): > > . Before science can “answer these questions”, someone needs to demonstrate that there is a meaningful and necessary question to be asked. And by “necessary”, I mean that you must show that something exists that is not already easily explained. What are you saying? I must prove something exists before science will bother trying to explain it. Ridiculous. Hasn’t science discovered things they didn’t even know existed, based on a question of possible existence? In this case there are enough recorded NDEs to raise a meaningful question which is indeed being addressed. Try to be relevant. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744/173 "2005-09-05T01:45:35Z")
> [@Jon the Geek](#): > > It doesn’t seem to directly address whether, for example, people experiencing NDEs learn things that they couldn’t otherwise know, though, so it still doesn’t support **lekatt’s** assertions of documented cases of NDEs with confirmed supernatural ties. I think I mistakenly responded to **Czarcasm** regarding this post. My bad. I’ve already said I don’t see NDEs as proving anything about life after death or being conclusive about our spirit in any scientific sense. > [@](#): > > [Here’s one](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11801343&query_hl=15) that appears to be nearly on-point. “These include an ability to ‘see’ and recall specific detailed descriptions of the resuscitation, as verified by resuscitation staff,” says the abstract. But this is a review article, and strangely I can’t find any articles published before it that confirm that sentence. Your links provided only the beginning of the article and I couldn’t access the rest. Too bad, sounded interesting. > [@](#): > > Without documentation of what actually happened, these are not evidence for the type of NDEs that **lekatt** has asserted have been confirmed, so, lacking evidence, I can’t choose to believe in them. I do not rule out the possibility, but I need a reason to believe something; I can’t simply choose to believe that something is true, then find a way to convince myself of it. That makes no sense to me, nor, I suspect, to several of the posters that you think are calling the kettle black. You mean “lacking evidence that I find compellng” which is fine. NDE’s is not an area that science can properly address at this time. As I’ve already said. It seems obvious to me that serious intelligent people are researching them. I find it hard to believe that in hundreds of documented cases everyone was consciously or unconsciously distorting the information in the way you described. I have no problem with anyone who chooses for their own reasons to not believe. What I do have a problem with is those who think that what amounts to their opinion is somehow far more valid than those who disagree with them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744/174 "2005-09-05T04:52:39Z")
On one hand you say the NDE is not something science can properly address, and on the other you keep asking me for conclusive evidence. I recognize a no-win situation when I see one. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744/175 "2005-09-05T09:12:18Z")
Sorry for the brief drive-by, but BBC Focus magazine has an excellent article this month (the October 2005 edition) on p.61-65 (but for heaven’s sake, don’t turn to p. 66!). It describes various means of **causing** Out of Body Experiences and Autoscopic Experiences via electromagnetically stimulating (or restricting oxygen flow within) the junction of the temporal/parietal lobe, _eg._ an [E-M helmet](http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/25/3/550), G-forces in pilots and the use of specific drugs. If “spiritual experiences” can be caused by physical means, does choosing a spiritual explanation in place of a physical one not violate Ockham’s razor? Or are these, like the Scotsman who takes sugar on his porridge, not “true” experiences? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744/176 "2005-09-05T09:19:29Z")
> [@dan](#): > > OC does not apply to spirituality and William of Ockham was a monk who did believe in God. And Newton was a Young Earth creationist, yet his theory of universal gravitation requires no such dogma: we ought not take into account what _else_ the discoverer or innovator of a useful principle believed. In any case, the general principle of Parsimony was around long before William of Ockham. Would you not agree that proposing that angels pushed the planets around the sun violates OR since we have a perfectly viable _natural_ explanation from Newton, irrespective of what other nonsense he believed? If so, it is surely no stretch to ask ourselves whether natural neuropsychological explanations are all that are necessary for these vivid dreams? ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744/177 "2005-09-05T10:33:42Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Sorry for the brief drive-by, but BBC Focus magazine has an excellent article this month (the October 2005 edition) on p.61-65 (but for heaven’s sake, don’t turn to p. 66!). It describes various means of **causing** Out of Body Experiences and Autoscopic Experiences via electromagnetically stimulating (or restricting oxygen flow within) the junction of the temporal/parietal lobe, _eg._ an [E-M helmet](http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/25/3/550), G-forces in pilots and the use of specific drugs. > > If “spiritual experiences” can be caused by physical means, does choosing a spiritual explanation in place of a physical one not violate Ockham’s razor? Or are these, like the Scotsman who takes sugar on his porridge, not “true” experiences? > [@SentientMeat](#): > > **antenichus** , could you try and tell us what you think brought about your _volte face_? Is it more to do with some datum or data which you consider simply could _never_ be explained by dreams, misremembered sequences of events or other purely neuropsychological process, or is it more to do with some feeling of significance or “meaning” it inspires in you which neurophsychological explanations do not? I will try to get a copy of [this edition](http://www.focusmag.co.uk/cover.asp) of BBC Focus. Come to think of it, I suppose there is no evidence for a spirit and thus it may as well not exist other than as a meme for the purpose of psychic comfort. I will stay tuned - maybe some evidence will appear. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744/178 "2005-09-05T11:30:49Z")
> [@antechinus](#): > > I will try to get a copy of [this edition](http://www.focusmag.co.uk/cover.asp) of BBC Focus. > > Come to think of it, I suppose there is no evidence for a spirit and thus it may as well not exist other than as a meme for the purpose of psychic comfort. > > I will stay tuned - maybe some evidence will appear. An out of body experience can happen anytime. It can happen when one is relaxing, when one is meditating, even when one least expects it. When Robert Monroe was young he used to slip out of his body frequently. This was a frightening experience at first until he learned to accept it and control it. He wrote several books, and established an institute in Virginia called the Robert Monroe Institute. Studies of OBEs have been going on there for decades. Your scientists friends are far behind in understanding this spiritual phenomenon. OBEs are not near death experiences and don’t come close to them. True a person having an NDE does leave the body in the first stage, but from there on everything is different. I notice they say nothing about what the out of body person observes while out of body. This can reveal the true nature of the experience. Many visit other places and can accurately tell what was happening there when they return to their bodies. Yogas, monks, gurus, and other spiritual people have been doing this sort of thing for thousands of years. Science is far, far behind. I will concede it may be possible to electrically stimulate the brain and produce an out of body experience, but this is not a near death experience. As for evidence of spirit, it is everywhere you look. Near death experiences are objective evidence of spiritual existence. Now, as I have said all along, scientists could produce a near death experience if they killed the patient as in the case of Pam Reynolds. But then they don’t really produce the experience, they only allow it to happen by fooling the body into thinking it is dying. There is considerable evidence, good solid evidence of the existence of the spiritual nature of mankind. When science catches up with spiritual people they too will understand it. Here is a better explanation of what happens. [Question 02 about Near Death Experiences.](http://www.aleroy.com/FAQz02.htm) It would be so much easier for you to read the material before trying to figure it out. No NDE has ever been reproduced by science. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744/179 "2005-09-05T11:44:35Z")
Realizing you probably won’t read the link I will bring part of the link to you. I do want you to learn about your own spiritual nature before death. There is much happiness and joy associated with it. > [@](#): > > We are spiritual consciousnesses enjoying a physical life created for the purpose of self learning. Picture yourself standing on the edge of two dimensions. One spiritual and the other physical. If you look outward from your physical body (which is only a communication tool) you will focus in the physical dimension. If you look inward through the physical body you will focus in the spiritual dimension. Christians will remember reading when Jesus was asked where the Kingdom of God was, He replied: “The Kingdom of God is within you”. Unfortunately, many are focused so intensely in the physical that they no longer feel or believe in the spiritual. However, when the physical body malfunctions or dies, the focus returns to the spiritual dimension which is home. > > If you direct your point of consciousness inward and hold it there. After a time, the physical world will begin to fade, dimmer and dimmer. Eventually you will see the light and feel the love that NDEers do. You may also meet deceased friends and experience other NDE-like events. You will have entered the fringe of the spiritual dimension. This process, I have described, is called meditation. Meditation is the safest, most reliable way to visit the spiritual dimension, and there are many, many varieties of it. If you read the literature on meditation you will find an abundance of NDE-like events mentioned. In fact, some Yogi masters warn their students to ignore the lights, and things they may see because they believe it is a distraction from the purity of the meditation. > > However, meditation has one very large drawback. It may take many months, even years of daily practice to learn how to lower the physical senses (focus) to the degree necessary to experience the spiritual dimension. And, for one reason or another, some practitioners are never able to reach the spiritual. So, over the centuries, man has devised, invented and discovered shortcut methods. > > These methods included anything that could diminish, or fade the physical senses. Sweatlodges, dancing in circles for hours, hypnosis, staring into crystal balls, watching pendulums swing, and of course a wide assortment of drugs. Peyote, loco weed, hash, opium, and now Ketamine. The drug Ketamine, along with numerous others, diminishes, lowers the physical senses (focus) of man and allows the spiritual dimension to be experienced. The real NDE is caused by the death of the body which temporarily cancels ALL physical focus, thereby producing the intense spiritual experience that it is. A severe warning about drugs is needed here. The use of drugs to enter the world of spirit can be very dangerous for those who are unprepared emotionally for the trip. The results can be disasterous to the personality of the individual. > > In summary: the world of spirit is alive and well. The drug Ketamine, and any others that may be developed in the future, only allows the spiritual experience, and does not cause it. The Near Death Experience is very real, and is, exactly what it appears to be: man encountering his Creator at the time of his physical death. The NDE is a wake-up call. It is time to return to our roots of Love, and Compassion for ourselves and others. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744/180 "2005-09-05T12:05:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > On one hand you say the NDE is not something science can properly address, and on the other you keep asking me for conclusive evidence. I recognize a no-win situation when I see one. Finally That is in fact my point about areas where science has no conclusive evidence and isn’t likely to get one soon. You can explain that you don’t agree, or believe and share the innformation that leads you to that conclusion, but why critisize someone for not having the ability to prove belief, when you can’t prove yours either. I do understand your point about the quality of information and agree. In this case I think Dr. Moody, the priliminary study, and the PHD RN represent serious minded study that equals the links you preovided. They are all good information that allows someone to make a judgement call. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-in-spiritual-experiences/318744.md?page=10)