# Do you believe it's immoral to willingly enlist in the military? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2019, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901 "2019-09-27T09:46:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901/21 "2019-09-27T13:58:09Z")
> [@Annoyed](#): > > Absolutely not. Why would it be immoral? The shooting, killing and the whatnot. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901/22 "2019-09-27T14:31:35Z")
I would not be comfortable making a blanket characterization of “immoral”, but neither would I posit that the mere act of enlisting and serving necessarily merits any more respect. Certainly some (many? most?) in the military serve admirably for fine reasons. But at least some do so because the pay/benefits are their best option. They look to what they can get from it, more than what they can contribute. Also, to some extent I feel that voluntarily enlisting at a time that your government is pursuing unjust military actions IS immoral, because if people did not volunteer, the government would be limited in its ability to wage war. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901/23 "2019-09-27T14:32:33Z")
> [@CatRummage](#): > > If you think it would depends on the military then you could use the US Military and the IDF as examples. No. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901/24 "2019-09-27T14:35:32Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > The shooting, killing and the whatnot. How about the wars avoided through strength? You might not have noticed, but the world is particularly peaceful (well, for humans anyway :p) in the last 50 or so years…especially compared to the 50 or so that preceded it. So, I’d say that, morally, it’s better to have folks willing to enlist in the military than not, over all. Even with the several debatable moral things the US has done in that time. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901/25 "2019-09-27T14:45:48Z")
> [@XT](#): > > How about the wars avoided through strength? You might not have noticed, but the world is particularly peaceful (well, for humans anyway :p) in the last 50 or so years…especially compared to the 50 or so that preceded it. So, I’d say that, morally, it’s better to have folks willing to enlist in the military than not, over all. Even with the several debatable moral things the US has done in that time. I’m not arguing the absolute morality or lack thereof of the military. See my first post for more on that. I was just responding directly to **Annoyed** , who couldn’t even come up with one reason any person might think the military is immoral. I was helping them with their lack of imagination. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901/26 "2019-09-27T14:47:01Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > I’m not arguing the absolute morality or lack thereof of the military. See my first post for more on that. > > I was just responding directly to **Annoyed** , who couldn’t even come up with one reason any person might think the military is immoral. I was helping them with their lack of imagination. Ok, my bad. Sorry about that. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901/27 "2019-09-27T14:52:25Z")
In most cases, no - not anymore than it would be to be a police officer. The only case it would be immoral would be if it’s something like the Nazi Wehrmacht. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901/28 "2019-09-27T14:57:09Z")
I served willingly. I’d do it again. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901/29 "2019-09-27T15:01:10Z")
To me it’s a question of the motivation not the act itself which is a/im/moral, and further still, the motivation of the heart, not the though process of the head. In this example I would say that one can not judge morality by that act - and it’s not even close, so it is indeterminate, it is more like asking to judging the morality of ordering a big mac as opposed to the morality of plowing your car into a group of people (which also can be moral under certain conditions). This is what I feel the reason that Jesus removed the curse of the law, as the law was against us. Meaning our acts were judged by man regardless of where our heart was but God judges the heart, not the act. ---
**Author:** ![Annoyed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f04885/32.png) [@Annoyed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annoyed)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901/30 "2019-09-27T15:05:42Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > I’m not arguing the absolute morality or lack thereof of the military. See my first post for more on that. > > I was just responding directly to **Annoyed** , who couldn’t even come up with one reason any person might think the military is immoral. I was helping them with their lack of imagination. It’s just such a weird question I had no idea what to make of it. No I do not think it’s immoral and under certain circumstances I do not think “shooting and killing” is immoral either. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901/31 "2019-09-27T15:45:32Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > I willingly joined the Canadian Armed Forces, so generally speaking, no. It could be immoral depending on the army. It would have been immoral to willingly join the Waffen SS. Nope. Willingly serving in uniform as we speak. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901/32 "2019-09-27T16:27:06Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No. The nation needs a military, somebody has to do it. I consider being a soldier neither more nor less honorable than any other occupation. I think those who hold zero respect for the troops and those who can’t stop gushing about them both have the wrong take on it. This pretty much sums up how I feel. Joining isn’t a moral or immoral act and either can be performed while in service just like any job. Our country has gone way over board in felating the troops as a way to over compensate for Vietnam and I’m sick of that but it doesn’t effect the morality of joining. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901/33 "2019-09-27T16:49:40Z")
I can see both sides of it. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901/34 "2019-09-27T16:52:27Z")
I would never, ever join the military. And I don’t think that joining the military is a good thing, or that military service is noble or praiseworthy, or that the members of the current military should be lauded for how they protected us from the British or the confederacy. I don’t think that the military deserves credit for our freedoms, such as they are. That said, I don’t think that it’s immoral to join the military. Doing so is a risk - it puts you in the hands of others and makes you their tool. You might be used for evil - but you might be used for good. You might be used well or you might be used carelessly. You might be put in situations where the moral thing to do would be to refuse to obey orders, but there are many situations where we need soldiers who will obey orders, even when they don’t fully understand what’s going on. So while I’m not sure that joining the military is quite value-neutral, it’s close enough that other considerations would dominate the decision - do you need something the military offers, is it your best source of training/money given your circumstances. If your motivations for joining the military are along these lines it can be a good idea. If your motivations for joining are that you think it’s a noble calling or praiseworthy, I think you’re misguided. If your motivations are that you think it’s macho or fun, I think you’re stupid. But about the only way it would be immoral is if you got into it because you literally want to kill people. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901/35 "2019-09-27T16:59:04Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I would never, ever join the military. And I don’t think that joining the military is a good thing, or that military service is noble or praiseworthy, or that the members of the current military should be lauded for how they protected us from the British or the confederacy. I don’t think that the military deserves credit for our freedoms, such as they are. I agree about the current members, but as institutions, they’re the armed force that put the teeth in the Emancipation Proclamation and Declaration of Independence, to name the most obvious examples. So in some sense, they are directly responsible for some of our greatest freedoms. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901/36 "2019-09-27T17:09:21Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > … Joining isn’t a moral or immoral act and either can be performed while in service \*\*just like any job. Our country has gone way over board in felating the troops \*\* as a way to over compensate for Vietnam and I’m sick of that but it doesn’t effect the morality of joining. I’m surprised at how seldom I see sentiment similar to the portion I BOLDED, and with which I wholeheartedly agree. Not saying I expect it would be the majority point of view, but I’d expect to see it at least somewhat more frequently than I do. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901/37 "2019-09-27T17:10:13Z")
Regardless of what you think of Israel’s Palestine policy, I’m not sure how being a member of the IDF could be immoral. First, it’s a conscript force, and second, I think we can all agree that Israel wouldn’t exist without it. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901/38 "2019-09-27T17:18:45Z")
I go back to the “define moral” argument. To me, morality is adherence to perceived rules and therefore relative. What is moral to thee is not moral to me. I do not accept that there are “inherent” universal morals. So, no, I do not believe it’s immoral to willingly enlist in the military. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901/39 "2019-09-27T17:21:32Z")
It depends. There’s no one answer, and not even one answer for one military. I do not believe the relative morality of joining the US Army is the same today as it was on December 15, 1941. I do agree - quietly, because I am Canadian - that the USA has gone a little overboard in the deification of the soldier. That’s starting to pop up in Canada too. I do not wish to be thanked for my service; I volunteered, and I accepted a paycheck. It was a job. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901/40 "2019-09-27T17:29:46Z")
> [@CatRummage](#): > > If you think it would depends on the military then you could use the US Military and the IDF as examples. I think, like the IDF, it should be required service for all those who qualify. For those who do not, other forms of mandatory civic service would also be very useful and character building. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-believe-its-immoral-to-willingly-enlist-in-the-military/840901.md?page=3)